Chiangus Breed

[Commercialfarmer]

Im not an EPD scholar and I hate political correctness. I for one believe there is a hierarchy in breeds based on economical traits. Are his conclusions about these 5 EPD areas off base or just too generalized?

More progress would be made on here if people would contest the facts they disagree with as opposed to being polite. Some breeds ARE inferior.

Since you asked, the fellas from far north's overall concensus (oh and justsimmental) is that your brangus and beefmaster cattle suck. :cboy: But there is a good reason you have eared cattle where you are.

I would wager that you can find useful animals to the beef business in almost any breed and non-useful animals in any breed. And I often think there is more diversity in many breeds than there is between some of them.

Too many differences in environments and managment styles is the reason diversity occured in the first place. I don't plan on using highlanders here any time soon, and I doubt you could convince someone in the high cold Scotland hills that brahmas are the way to go.

 

[JustSimmental]

Im not an EPD scholar and I hate political correctness. I for one believe there is a hierarchy in breeds based on economical traits. Are his conclusions about these 5 EPD areas off base or just too generalized?

More progress would be made on here if people would contest the facts they disagree with as opposed to being polite. Some breeds ARE inferior.[/quote]


Yes you are right --some breeds are inferior. These are the facts. No one breed is perfect, but there are many out there that are just plain bad.

 

[Jovid]

Im not an EPD scholar and I hate political correctness. I for one believe there is a hierarchy in breeds based on economical traits. Are his conclusions about these 5 EPD areas off base or just too generalized?

More progress would be made on here if people would contest the facts they disagree with as opposed to being polite. Some breeds ARE inferior.

Yes you are right --some breeds are inferior. These are the facts. No one breed is perfect, but there are many out there that are just plain bad.[/quote]

Compared to what? Your super breed of crossbred cattle.

 

[JustSimmental]

I haven't belittled your cattle--just giving the facts.. Instead of attacking me with your drivvel, contest the facts as they have been given?? I realize it is easier for you to just ridicule, but do you have any information to share about the facts>? This isnt about me-- it was a discussion about cattle..

Is it NOT TRUE that Chi Ang have terrible WW,YW and IMF compared to the other breeds in their contemporary group? Answer the question--well?

Is it NOT TRUE that Chi Ang are fair in BW and REA?

These are the facts. Thats it.

JS

Its all about the grade.................... ChiAngus are weak in almost ALL of the EPD's of economic importance, but might make great pets as I have not thought about it.

WW = terrible
YW = terrible
IMF = terrible
REA = Fair
BW = fair

ChiAngus were popular for the "Showman" 20 to 30 years ago and I never saw a show animal ever do too well in a production cow unit. Maybe you could market them as "Pets".

I wonder if you have noticed that YOU are the only one on this forum who consistantly belittles other peoples breeds, and means it. What seems to be especially funny is your use of across breed EPD's to pimp yourself, your business, and I guess your breed. Which BTW we have yet to see any pictures of. So before you critisize anyone elses cattle or breed let's see yours!

 

[angusdave63]

well thank you js for showering your wealth on information on all of us do you want to tell me why anybody would even consider any other breed after you have shown us the light of day David

 

[Gators Rule]

before you critisize anyone elses cattle or breed let's see yours![/b]

This is a family forum. None of this "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"

In the words of the famous southern scholar Larry the Cable Guy...."that's funny right there, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!" :clap:

 

[JustSimmental]

I cannot believe that you people have not ever thought about Across Breed EPD's.

I think it is the Purebred Breeders' obligation to the commercial cattleman to give them the straight scoop. Some people either don't want to know or don't want to be honest about their cattle.

It is more than just making a sale. It's about being honest with any potential buyer.

I also think that it is the Purebred breeders' obligation to educate every potential buyer about both the strengths and WEAKNESSES of the cattle they raise.

These across breed EPD's are based on performance by breed types. (Genotype) in purebred operations. as well as. comm ops for BW and WW and YW in the feed yard and on the rail.

You may think you are only selling pounds on sale day, but you aren't. There is more cash to be made with quality pounds than quantity pounds-- period.

How are you going to talk a potential buyer into a Chi Angus bull -- what are you going to tell him?
Will you be honest and tell him that compared to his contemporary group your bull is lacking in WW. YW, IMF, but is fair in BW and REA>? Evidently not and that's a shame.

Let's take PB Simmental per the chart. PB is different than FB-- just so we are on the same page.
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/livestock/2010/08/LU-08-01-10-4.html (chart)

Blk Angus is the control:

Simm BW +5.2 when Angus is 0
Simm WW +28 when Angus is 0
Simm YW +28 when Angus is 0
Simm MM +12 when Angus is 0
Simm IMF -0.55 when Angus is 0
Simm REA +0.94 when Angus is 0
Simm BF -0.224 when Angus is 0

Let me explain this for you:
Simm calves on average will be heavier at birth than Angus by 5.2 lbs. FB Simms have an issue with this and some PB as well --this is an EPD we work on to IMPROVE.
Simm calves on average are 28 lbs heavier than Angus at weaning.
Simm calves on average are 28 lbs heavier at yearling age.
Simm cows on average give much more milk than do Angus and this is something we have been working on for many years with PB's. Higher MM EPD's increase maintenance costs in the cow herd.
Simm calves IMF or Marb tend to be LOW compared to Angus. Simm are not genetically capable of producing a high amount of marbling-- this is a fact. Sure we work on it, but we can't compete with Angus in this category.
Simm calves REA is +0.94 when Angus is 0-- this is good for 1 carcass merit trait.
Simm calves on average are -0.224 when Angus is 0. This is a good trait for commercial processing of Wet aging of beef due to a decrease in trim. Angus tends to have more BF thus more trim expense at processing.

So why Simm/Angus?

The Angus will improve BW on Simmangus calves.
The Angus will improve IMF on Simmangus calves.
The Angus will improve MM on Simmangus calves, (bring it down) (less maintenance)
The Simm will improve WW by 28 lbs
The Simm will improve YW by 28 lbs
The Simm will improve REA by 0.95
The Simm will improve BF by -0.224 (which means less trim)

This is why SimmAngus calves are popular in today's marketplace. Packer wants a consistent Choice YG 2. This cross delivers. These are the facts.

Let's Look at Chi Angus: (CA)

CA BW +5.0 when Angus is 0
CA WW -17 when Angus is 0
CA YW -40 when Angus is 0
CA MM has no data when Angus is 0
CA IMF -0.48 when Angus is 0
CA REA +0.60 when Angus is 0
CA BF -0.155 when Angus is 0

What does this mean? I'm not going all through it again, but what two traits of economic importance are killing Chi Angus compared to their contemporary group?

WW and YW are terrible. Are these selling points when selling a Chi Angus bull to a potential buyer? Will you be honest with them, so they can make the best choice for their particular situation????

Will you be honest with a potential bull buyer>?

This also gives purebred breeders an IDEA of what they need to do to improve their cattle.

This is a good tool.

Im not an EPD scholar and I hate political correctness. I for one believe there is a hierarchy in breeds based on economical traits. Are his conclusions about these 5 EPD areas off base or just too generalized?

More progress would be made on here if people would contest the facts they disagree with as opposed to being polite. Some breeds ARE inferior.

Yes you are right --some breeds are inferior. These are the facts. No one breed is perfect, but there are many out there that are just plain bad.

Compared to what? Your super breed of crossbred cattle.[/quote]

 

[UG]

MARC has probably done more unbiased work on strengths and weaknesses on breeds, and have released some very good data over the years. However, the use of their across breeds EPDs adjustments hasn't been accepted very well by much of the industry. Many industry leaders question whether MARC used truly representative sires in their evaluations of breeds, especially in some of the studies. For example, if MARC used sires of a breed that were lower in YW than is truly representative of bulls being used in the breed at the time of the study, that incorrectly leads to too low of adjustments in YW for that particular breed. One breed that comes to mind is Gelbvieh. Many producers and those in academia question if the Gelbvieh adjustments in the across breed EPD tables are accurate, and feel that they unfairly penalize Gelbvieh for growth.

Though justsimmentals has a very strong opinion of Chiangus, based on across breed EPDs, apparently not everyone else has the same opinion. A good example is Decatur County Feedyards near Oberlin, KS, one of the nation's top feedyards. They have had very good success feeding Chi influenced cattle; both from good growth and feed efficiency in the feedlot and premiums when the cattle are sold on the grid. When producers ask Decatur County Feedyards what breed of bull to buy, one of the breeds that they will encourage producers to consider when making their next herd sire selection is Chiangus. Now, that doesn't mean that all Chiangus bulls are good, but they will provide names of Chiangus seedstock operations that produce cattle that work in their feedlot.

 

[UG]

justsimmental,

I just reread your previous email. It seems that you are not using the Across Breed EPD table correctly. For example, above you stated that on average Simmental are 28 pounds heavier than Angus for YW. The across breed EPDs table doesn't indicate how much better or worse a breed is on a particular trait relative to Angus, but provides a way to compare EPDs of animals from different breeds.

I believe for your assumption to be correct, the average EPD for each trait would have to be the same for each breed, but they are not. For example, the average Angus YW EPD last fall was 80. The average Simmental YW EPD last fall was 55.9. So, to more accurately compare the average YW EPD of these two breeds you need to add 28 pounds to the Simmental average, which gives you 83.9 (55.9 + 28). So, based on MARC research the average Simmental has a 3.9 (83.9 - 80.0) pound greater YW EPD than the average Angus, not 28 pounds as you indicated.

For a real world example, I'll compare the most heavily used Angus bull of the past couple years, MYTTY In Focus, to the most popular Simmental bull during this same period, Dream On. The YW EPD for In Focus last fall was 99 and the YW EPD for Dream on was 54. To more accurately compare these two bulls for YW 28 pounds needs to be added to Dream On's YW EPD, which gives him an adjusted YW EPD of 82 (54 + 28). What this means, is when these two bulls are bred to females of a third breed (not Angus or Simmental) the In Focus calves, on average should out weigh the Dream On calves by 17 pounds as yearlings (99 - 82).

 

[JustSimmental]

justsimmental,

I just reread your previous email. It seems that you are not using the Across Breed EPD table correctly. For example, above you stated that on average Simmental are 28 pounds heavier than Angus for YW. The across breed EPDs table doesn't indicate how much better or worse a breed is on a particular trait relative to Angus, but provides a way to compare EPDs of animals from different breeds.
Angus is the control in the Across Breed EPD Table and yes that is what it indicates- the differences BY BREED between these few EPD's and the control. But anyway in comparing EPD's of animals from differing breeds we are seeing the same --which ones are better or worse when the EPD's are balanced.

I believe for your assumption to be correct, the average EPD for each trait would have to be the same for each breed, but they are not. For example, the average Angus YW EPD last fall was 80. The average Simmental YW EPD last fall was 55.9. So, to more accurately compare the average YW EPD of these two breeds you need to add 28 pounds to the Simmental average, which gives you 83.9 (55.9 + 28). So, based on MARC research the average Simmental has a 3.9 (83.9 - 80.0) pound greater YW EPD than the average Angus, not 28 pounds as you indicated.

No, per the chart--when the YW EPD for Angus is 0 Simmental is +28, which means that say MYTTY who is a +99 for YW in todays numbers he is really 99 - 28 which = +71



For a real world example, I'll compare the most heavily used Angus bull of the past couple years, MYTTY In Focus, to the most popular Simmental bull during this same period, Dream On. The YW EPD for In Focus last fall was 99 and the YW EPD for Dream on was 54. To more accurately compare these two bulls for YW 28 pounds needs to be added to Dream On's YW EPD, which gives him an adjusted YW EPD of 82 (54 + 28). What this means, is when these two bulls are bred to females of a third breed (not Angus or Simmental) the In Focus calves, on average should out weigh the Dream On calves by 17 pounds as yearlings (99 - 82).

No, When comparing MYTTY and any Simmental we have the following:
MYTTY Now represents our control with a 99 lb YW and any Simmental below is a +28 when Angus is 0, so to bring MYTTY into balance with any Simmental bull, we must take 28 lbs off of the Angus control , which in this case is MYTTY. So, 99 - 28 = +71

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have to say that JS's interpretation is correct to the best of my knowledge.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

before you critisize anyone elses cattle or breed let's see yours![/b]

This is a family forum. None of this "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"

In the words of the famous southern scholar Larry the Cable Guy...."that's funny right there, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!" :clap:

larry the cable guy is from nebraska its a good thing he came onto that act,, cause http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWO5LgUZ28

 

[JustSimmental]

TY Jeanne.......

 

[UG]

Justsimmental,

We sure aren't agreeing on how this tool is to be used. Below is a link from the American Angus Association that illustrates how to use the across breed EPD table. They seem to have the same understanding that I do about how to use this tool:

http://www.angus.org/Nce/AcrossBreedEpdAdjFactors.aspx

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Justsimmental,

We sure aren't agreeing on how this tool is to be used. Below is a link from the American Angus Association that illustrates how to use the across breed EPD table. They seem to have the same understanding that I do about how to use this tool:

http://www.angus.org/Nce/AcrossBreedEpdAdjFactors.aspx

UG - after re-reading your post (sorry I must have been daydreaming) you are correct.
To go one step further on this analysis:
YW EPD's taken out of the Genex book adjusted:
Angus 82 + 0 = 82
R A 61 -6 = 55
Simm 58 + 28 = 86
Char 43 + 51 = 94
Hfd 75 - 16 = 59