Changed breed of cattle?

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Steve Banks

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I have this friend that has swicthed from Simmentals to Red Polls. Does anyone believe this was a good idea? His reason was that he felt that he could run more on the same amount of grass/feed. He felt that his simmentals was to difficult to keep fleshed. They were of the newer blood lines, all black. He had been in them for about 10 years.
 
No. I think you were in a decent breed of cattle for exotics. Now you are in one that is less known and probly don't have as large a share of the market.


Scotty
 
Did he sell his straight Simmentals and replace them with straight Red Polls? Or did he just switch bulls? Either way I think he made the right decision. IF you can't keep your cows healthy and in good condition, you need to make changes. It is not fair to the animals and generally not profitable to be running ribby cattle. Switching from Continentals to British cattle is generally one way to raise cattle in a more limited environment. I think moderate framed Herefords or Anguses "MIGHT" have been a better choice; BUT I do like Red Polls and am glad that a few people are keeping them around.
 
Brandonm2":36xdccp6 said:
I think moderate framed Herefords or Anguses "MIGHT" have been a better choice; BUT I do like Red Polls and am glad that a few people are keeping them around.
I think if I were to go with another breed it would be South Devons. They are moderate framed, docile, good milkers, that raise heavy calves with a high quality grade.
 
Steve Banks":2n9psf94 said:
I have this friend that has swicthed from Simmentals to Red Polls. Does anyone believe this was a good idea? His reason was that he felt that he could run more on the same amount of grass/feed. He felt that his simmentals was to difficult to keep fleshed. They were of the newer blood lines, all black. He had been in them for about 10 years.

Your friend believes it is a good idea. Support your friend, don't second guess him.

I don't have enough information to question his/or decision. If they have been raising cattle for 10 years, the he/she probably knows a little about them anyway. JMO
 
Traits simulated can be subdivided
into growth and body weights, energy
requirements, milk production, reproduction
and carcass characteristics.
Tables 1 (calf and cow weights, milk
production, reproduction and calving
difficulty), 2 (feed energy requirements),
3 (carcass characteristics and value under
Equal Age slaughter), and 4 (carcass
characteristics and value under Equal
Fat slaughter) contain purebred values
for samples of the traits. Value per pound
of carcass for slaughter steers and heifers
was based on yield grade, marbling
and breed type using regression equa-
Table 1. Purebred animal weights (1b), milk production (lb/205 days), reproductive performance
and calving difficulty used in simulations.

Breed Birth weight// 200-day Breeding wt//Milk// % weaned// % calving

Hereford 83 431 1151 2156 83.3 49
Angus 78 465 1155 2846 84.7 32

Simmental 92 540 1332 4105 82.4 45

Limousin 86 474 1273 3258 85.2 34
Charolais 95 522 1416 3137 85.2 42
Brahman 75 517 1352 4262 84.0 7

Red Poll 85 484 1168 3752 84.4 58

Gelbvieh 91 543 1330 4045 85.1 53
Maine Anjou 92 505 1407 3876 85.4 48
Braunvieh 94 542 1326 4475 85.2 51
Chianina 92 509 1415 3117 86.4 37
Brangus 84 468 1302 3543 83.3 41
Pinzgauer 96 525 1278 4061 84.2 53
Tarentaise 82 506 1279 3783 83.2 36
aData simulated for 2-year-old, 3-year-old, and mature dams; data from only mature dams shown here.
bAverage for steers and heifers.
cData simulated for 2-year-old, 3-year-old, and mature dams; data from only 2-year-old dams shown here.

Table 2. Purebred energy requirements and milk production used in the simulations.
Breed// Maintenance Preweaning Feedlot Feedlot
energya gain energy gain energyb gain energyc
Kcal/kg.75/day Mcal/lb Mcal/lb Mcal/lb
Hereford 108 2.27 5.56 5.39
Angus 109 2.38 5.59 5.39

Simmental 121 2.55 5.32 5.39

Limousin 118 2.38 5.33 5.39
Charolais 116 2.50 5.31 5.39
Brahman 109 2.54 5.40 5.39

Red Poll 117 2.41 5.44 5.39

Gelbvieh 116 2.57 5.31 5.39
Maine Anjou 110 2.46 5.39 5.39
Braunvieh 117 2.56 5.34 5.39
Chianina 125 2.47 5.38 5.39
Brangus 109 2.37 5.40 5.39
Pinzgauer 114 2.50 5.33 5.39
Tarentaise 113 2.49 5.40 5.39
aNon-lactating, gestating cow; all other cow and calf simulated maintenance costs derived from this
base value.
bData simulated for steers and heifers; steer data shown here for "Equal Age" slaughter scenario.
cData simulated for steers and heifers; steer data shown here for "Equal Fat" slaughter scenario.


Table 3. Purebred steera carcass characteristics used in Equal Age (440 days) at slaughter
simulations.
Breed //Yield grade //Marbling score// Carcass weight, lb Value, $/lb
Hereford 3.32 421 675 1.05
Angus 3.46 441 697 1.04

Simmental 2.29 380 767 1.09

Limousin 1.89 343 728 1.10
Charolais 2.34 371 767 1.08
Brahman 2.91 351 743 1.05

Red Poll 3.11 430 694 1.06

Gelbvieh 2.09 353 750 1.09
Maine Anjou 2.49 368 747 1.08
Braunvieh 2.13 384 747 1.09
Chianina 2.24 317 732 1.09
Brangus 2.99 381 747 1.05
Pinzgauer 2.32 416 757 1.08
Tarentaise 2.91 393 728 1.07
aHeifer data were simulated from steer data.
Page 5 — 2001 Nebraska Beef Report
profitable systems under this scenario.


Okay, I know these graphs don't come out right, this is a pdf file from the univ of Nebraska called "the beef herd" and is a 120 page file... I would have been happy to have given you the link but I can't find it on their website anymore (or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place).

He's going to a smaller cow (however, my heifers came out of cows very similar to the size of charolais). He's also going to a smaller calf. If he follows them through in the feedlot, he's increasing his marbling and grade but he's also switching from continental to english so that is to be expected.

My heifers won't be a year old until feb/mar and my 2 bull calves are six months old so I can't give you figures as to how the calves sell. I will say that mine are very gentle, docile in the pasture or in the chute. They are early maturing and many of the people who raise red polls tell me they have longevity. I researched the red angus and red poll quite a bit before I purchased any.

It's like any other breed, not one single breed out there can do it all. The red poll breed isn't well known, but so far I'm satisfied with mine. Time will tell.
The herd I bought my calves from does not supplement their cows with grain, but they also wean them at 400-450 lbs so I don't know if they'd have to supplement if the calf stayed on until 7 months.

You didn't say, has he switched to all red polls or is he keeping a simmy bull on the red poll cows?
 
You asked a loaded question, as there are both continental and british lovers on this forum, and both are equally rabid at defending their choices. :lol:

My own opinion is that your neighbor is correct in his choice. Small framed British cows as a general rule will have better feed conversion than the larger framed continentals. I watch my neighbors with their larger framed Chars and Simms feeding 50% more hay than I do, but not taking anymore than 50lbs more calf to market in the spring. They'll also run 30 head of cattle on a pasture that would support 45-50 of my british cows in the same time frame.

You don't mention if he's running purebreds or if he's running a commerical outfit. If hes strictly commercial, with no plans on keeping his own replacements, then he'd be wise to keep a Simm bull around.

Rod
 
la4angus - If you are serious about seeing or buying a South Devon - Talk to Scott Bollenbach - Cimarron South Devons in Oklahoma. They have arguably the best herd in the breed. Good people too!
 
Small framed British cows as a general rule will have better feed conversion than the larger framed continentals. I watch my neighbors with their larger framed Chars and Simms feeding 50% more hay than I do, but not taking anymore than 50lbs more calf to market in the spring. They'll also run 30 head of cattle on a pasture that would support 45-50 of my british cows in the same time frame.

Your scenario is not considered "Feed Conversion". The maintenance requirements of larger cows is higher than smaller cows but unless they weigh twice as much as yours it shouldn't be 50%.

Example:

1-A 1000 lb nursing cow needs 20.2 lbs of Dry Matter and 2 lbs of protein per day.

2-A 1200 lb nursing cow needs 23 lbs. of Dry Matter and 2.1 lbs of protein per day.

That's a difference of;
Approx 13% MORE Dry Matter
Approx 5% MORE Protein

If the hay costs are .03 cents per lb.($30.00 for 1000 lb roll)
and the larger cow eats 13% more hay than your cow (30 lbs. per day) it would mean the larger cow eats 4.5 lbs per day more hay.

4.5 lbs X .03 cents =.135 cents per day X 205 = $27.68 more for the 205 day calf period.

If he raises 50 more lbs. of calf than you he is coming out well ahead of you if calves are bringing $1.00 per lb.

In fact $22.32 more per calf.

This proposition might not fit your case exactly, but there is a place for larger framed cows in the right environment.
 
You're right Mike, feed conversion in the strictest sense isn't really what I was illustrating. Sorry for the misleading information.

I really did need to include the cattle weights in order to better illustrate what I meant though.

His average cow weighs about 1900 pounds. My average cow weighs in around 1200 pounds. In a free choice situation, my cattle are eating about 2.5% of their own body weight per day.

1200 x 2.5% = 30 lbs hay/day

He feels his cattle are consuming closer to 3% of their own body weight (I think he's high as I feed 2 bales to his 3 and our bales are pretty much identical, so I think he's closer to 2.5%).

1900 x 3 % = 57 lbs/day

On 50 head of cattle, I feed 547,500 lbs of hay in a year (lets not try to bring pasture into this, it'd way too tough to calculate). Those 50 head will get me 850 lbs of calf each, 42500 pound of calf.

So 12 lbs hay to get 1 lb of calf

He feeds 1040250 lbs of hay in a year. His 50 head gets him 900 lbs of calf each, 45000 lbs of calf.

He feeds 23lbs of hay to get 1 lb of calf

So, while its not feed conversion, I'm still getting more pounds of calf per pound of hay fed, or acre of land used.

Rod
 
I understand. But 1900 lb cows are NOT the normal situation.

But don't let his operation determine for you everyones' case.

I know some who make the bigger cows (but not 1900) work for them.
 
Sounds like the evil frame creep has slipped up on him. Tossing everything and starting over is in my opinion over kill. Using a moderate framed bull of another breed and keeping the heifers that are good enough for replacements seems like a more financially sound way of going.

dun
 
dun":3v6xqta0 said:
Sounds like the evil frame creep has slipped up on him. Tossing everything and starting over is in my opinion over kill. Using a moderate framed bull of another breed and keeping the heifers that are good enough for replacements seems like a more financially sound way of going.

dun

We opted for the chuck them all method.
Feeding those big cows while raising smaller calves seemed
worse.
We got big money for our herd thinking the market couldn't
hold that high for long...wrong.
Somtimes you need a change or fresh start.

hillbilly
 
hillbilly":3s2ru7lr said:
.
We got big money for our herd thinking the market couldn't
hold that high for long...wrong.
hillbilly
What do you consider long. Did you think you sold at the very top of the mkt. and would be able to start buying back cheaper the next week.
You may have still made the right decision.
 
MikeC":2blm6l2t said:
I understand. But 1900 lb cows are NOT the normal situation.

But don't let his operation determine for you everyones' case.

I know some who make the bigger cows (but not 1900) work for them.

I totally understand Mike. I rarely ever debate large cow vs small cow or breed vs breed because everyone has their preferences and just about everyone I know can somehow make their choices pencil out.

I offered the original poster my opinion based on my neck of the woods. The continentals are still very much large framed. 1800 lb Chars and Simms are the norm up here, and I just don't think they pencil with good performing 12 - 1400 pound cows.

Rod
 
Having always ranched in arid areas with low carrying capacity, I have always favoured medium framed cattle. Crossing for larger framed market calves is always an option. The Red Poll is another of the underrated breeds that has much to offer the commercial breeder.

The hurrier I am, the behinder I get!
 
Here here for those that have suggested South Devon. They are truly the most underrated breed in the world. I love ours,their temperament is second to none. They cross so well with any breed they are put with. We have joined them to Brahman,Hereford,Black Baldy,Angus and Charolais and are rapt with the weight gains and hybrid vigour. Getting back to the subject about Simmies to Red Polls. I like both of the breeds,its hard to say about changing from one to the other depends on what type of country they are run on. Red Polls are great mothers as are Simmies. Milk supply is good from both temperament is the same. Difficult question.
Colin :D
 
The main reason I disagreed is that I don't think you should jsut drop a breed and go another way. I would have tried to ease into it. Alot like Dun said.


Scotty
 
We wean our Red Poll calves at six months straight from the momma and this year we weaned a 680 lb bull and our heifers averaged 600 lb. Our cows average 1200 lb.

I'll take that combination any day.
 

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