CED Lesson please

[mitch2]

I don't have anything on my cattle currently. They are commercial herd. My cows are FS 5 to FS 6.
If FS relates to anything, the bull I have been using for 5 years is a FS 5.
The first year I had him, he bred all heifers.
I lost one calf that weighed 105 pounds, but it was a heck of a long calf from a heifer that is long as train. She would of had it no problem, but the legs were down, coming out nose first. Once we got the legs up, the calf slid right out.
I now have 6 heifers from this bull and I think I have found a bull to breed them to. These 6 heifers were born May 2009 (give or take a couple of weeks). If bred now they would be going on 28ish months old at calving in Sep 2011.

The young bull I want to purchase has a CED of -4.6; CEDtrs of +.2; BW of +5.6

Is this a train wreck?

Needing guidance! Thank you!
Michele

 

[Isomade]

I don't want a birthweight of greater than +2 on a heifer. I would prefer no more than a +1. at +2 he had beter be smooth shouldered. 5.6, not me. I can't help you with the CED I pay attention to BW and the shape of the bull for heifers.

 

[Oldtimer]

I don't have anything on my cattle currently. They are commercial herd. My cows are FS 5 to FS 6.
If FS relates to anything, the bull I have been using for 5 years is a FS 5.
The first year I had him, he bred all heifers.
I lost one calf that weighed 105 pounds, but it was a heck of a long calf from a heifer that is long as train. She would of had it no problem, but the legs were down, coming out nose first. Once we got the legs up, the calf slid right out.
I now have 6 heifers from this bull and I think I have found a bull to breed them to. These 6 heifers were born May 2009 (give or take a couple of weeks). If bred now they would be going on 28ish months old at calving in Sep 2011.

The young bull I want to purchase has a CED of -4.6; CEDtrs of +.2; BW of +5.6

Is this a train wreck?

Needing guidance! Thank you!
Michele

What breed bull? If these numbers you're talking are black angus EPD's- yep I would call a CED of -4.6 and BW of +5.6 used on heifers heading for a trainwreck....

 

[angus9259]

I'd look close at using him on cows myself.

 

[Herefords.US]

I don't have anything on my cattle currently. They are commercial herd. My cows are FS 5 to FS 6.
If FS relates to anything, the bull I have been using for 5 years is a FS 5.
The first year I had him, he bred all heifers.
I lost one calf that weighed 105 pounds, but it was a heck of a long calf from a heifer that is long as train. She would of had it no problem, but the legs were down, coming out nose first. Once we got the legs up, the calf slid right out.
I now have 6 heifers from this bull and I think I have found a bull to breed them to. These 6 heifers were born May 2009 (give or take a couple of weeks). If bred now they would be going on 28ish months old at calving in Sep 2011.

The young bull I want to purchase has a CED of -4.6; CEDtrs of +.2; BW of +5.6

Is this a train wreck?

Needing guidance! Thank you!
Michele

It's amazing that folks can look at some low accuracy EPDs and think they can make a judgment from that alone anymore. Proof that far too many folks have bought into the EPD kool-aid that the breed associations and some breeders are peddling.

It COULD be a potential trainwreck, but there are so many more factors that should be considered instead of just low accuracy EPDs on an unproven bull - things like actual BW and how that BW compares with his peer group. Also, the actual BWs of his parents, and how accurate their EPDs are, breeder input and can you put trust in it or are they just trying to sell you a bull?

Also, is the bull everything you want in every other way? If so, it becomes a matter of judging risk vs. reward.

Since you are waiting to calve at 28 months, you can probably stand a little more BW for heifers. And, of course, how you manage the heifers probably will mean more than anything else. The plane of nutrition they'll be on in their last trimester, and how you can manage that, might be the most important factor.

George

 

[deenranch]

It's amazing that folks can look at some low accuracy EPDs and think they can make a judgment from that alone anymore. Proof that far too many folks have bought into the EPD kool-aid that the breed associations and some breeders are peddling.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The bull I use on heifers has a BW EPD of 3.4 (charolais). He throws 68-72 pounders all day long. His BW was low and he is smooth shouldered and they taper as they go up. I agree that to many people go strictly off of EPD's. You can't always do that. Same way with buying a pedigreed animal. If the animal has the best pedigree in the world and looks terrible, you shouldn't always buy it.

Look at the bull and tell the seller what you are wanting to do with him. If he is worried at all about his reputation, then he will shoot you straight. If he is not worried then he will be out of business...

good luck

 

[mitch2]

Murray Grey is the breed of the bull.
My cows are primarily Angus, AngusXGV, the six heifers would be from MG Bull.
These are the three bulls I am considering...
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/459V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/471V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/477V.html

My Goal:
Retail beef and replacement's.

Thank you!
Michele

 

[Oldtimer]

It's amazing that folks can look at some low accuracy EPDs and think they can make a judgment from that alone anymore. Proof that far too many folks have bought into the EPD kool-aid that the breed associations and some breeders are peddling.

Well- I'm not a big proponent of EPD's- but within the angus breed to end up with that bad of CED and BW EPD's-- even if just interim or of very low accuracy-- would have to mean that in the close pedigree of that animal there was some ancestors throwing some really high birth weights and with some major calving ease issues...

I agree that they are not always that accurate-- but unless you have lots of time to watch heifers- extra money for C-sections- have a Vet for a neighbor- and don't care that much about your heifers or if their calves are born alive-- WHY would you even take a chance that the odds are wrong?
Especially when there are so many true calving ease heifer bulls out there to choose from?

I agree with angus9259-- I probably wouldn't even use him on my cows because live calves that come fast with lots of vigor are important to me...Over years far past (when I tried the continetal fad) I watched too many cows poke along and take an hour or two to calve and then have a big old dummy calf too dumb to get up and suck- so he'd lay there and die....
And also because I don't want to take the chance of throwing those type calving ease problems and higher birthweight into the heifers/genetics of the herd....

 

[vclavin]

Murray Grey is the breed of the bull.
My cows are primarily Angus, AngusXGV, the six heifers would be from MG Bull.
These are the three bulls I am considering...
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/459V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/471V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/477V.html

My Goal:
Retail beef and replacement's.

Thank you!
Michele

http://www.murraygreybeefcattle.com/index.htm
If I were you, I'd check with the MG association to find out their reccommendations for use on heifers. I would also have the vet do a pelvic on each of them to make sure they are mature enough and their their pelvic scores are high enough to have the calves safely. $2 per animal is smart insurance.
If you were using Angus bulls, I'd say never use a bull below CED of 7 for heifers (this EPD takes BW,ancester calving data and more into account.. all in one EPD sort of) BW of not over +2. If you are also looking for carcass qualities, make sure the animals have EPD's to assess and actual ultrasound would be better.
Good luck!
Valerie

 

[Herefords.US]

Murray Grey is the breed of the bull.
My cows are primarily Angus, AngusXGV, the six heifers would be from MG Bull.
These are the three bulls I am considering...
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/459V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/471V.html
http://www.eaglesrun.com/sale/salebulls_slideshow/477V.html

My Goal:
Retail beef and replacement's.

Thank you!
Michele

Eagles Run Xpress 471 is a dark grey bull born November 22, 2009 from a combination of a super moderate tank of a female to a growthy, thick, big butted bull. Xpress 471 is a stout, small to moderate-framed bull with an massive butt profile and thick body. This bull will be a brick of performance and should meet the need of those operations trying to improve thickness and muscling and improve hindquarter development in their herd. He would be a great fit for a grassfed operation or one trying to improve performance in tough conditions. Xpress 471 would be most suitable over cows due to body thickness though he has a small head and nice shoulders to improve calving. You can access information on the sire and dam in the pedigree below by selecting the name link.

Since the breeder himself is advocating this bull's use on cows (see bolded part of statement), I'd take his word for it that this wasn't going to be a bull to use on heifers. It's a pity- because that bull would be my favorite of the three otherwise.

And I'm surprised no one else seemed to know you were looking at Murray Grey EPDs and not Angus EPDs. I don't follow these other forums or threads very much and I knew it! :roll:

George

 

[angus9259]

It's amazing that folks can look at some low accuracy EPDs and think they can make a judgment from that alone anymore. Proof that far too many folks have bought into the EPD kool-aid that the breed associations and some breeders are peddling.

George

You forgot one of these:

 

[angus9259]

BW and CED are within breed - angus or others. So if the MG bull is +5 its against MG standards. So, based on MG standards this bull certainly possesses the "risk" of larger than average calves that are harder than average to calve. The risk is "less" certain because of the low accuracy of the EPDs. That means the risk may not be as high as stated . . . or . . . it may be HIGHER than stated. You don't know.

Increasing the plane of nutrition is a HUGE factor in calving performance - I'm coming to believe one of the biggest - no one arguing that - wasn't the question posted in the thread either.

I wouldn't use him. Not a judgement - a preference.

There are plenty of outstanding bulls with outstanding high accuracy credentials that offer less risk in every breed. I have no way (repeat) no way of judging what will actually happen based simply on EPDs on this bull or any bull in any breed nor can anyone. IF I did use him, I would make sure my cattle were on an increasing plane of nutrition in the 3rd trimester . . . just like I would if I used any bull with any EPDs in any breed.

IF it were me and this bull possessed EVERYTHING I was looking for in a bull . . . I would keep looking to find all that stuff in a bull with a lower BW EPD.

But that's just me. And I raise angus so everything I just said has to be understood through the fabric that I've been brainwashed by a breed organization have have lost all ability to think for myself. :dunce:

 

[Herefords.US]

BW and CED are within breed - angus or others. So if the MG bull is +5 its against MG standards.

But the breed average BW EPD for Murray Greys in 2009 was +3.0, so a +5 would be only a difference of +2 when compared to the breed average.

This particular bull was a product of breeding a "low" BW EPD cow to a "high" BW EPD bull. Averaged together, his "pedigree" BW EPD should have been +3.8. Since it is a +5.6 that means the bull's actual BW must have been a good bit over the average of his peer group, thus his BW EPD was adjusted upward. That would cause concern to me that he might tend to breed more toward his sire. And that's what I was referring to in that a person really needs to look deeper than just the numbers.

The bottom line is that the catalog footnote says he should be used on cows (indicating NOT on heifers). Regardless of what the EPDs indicate, that would be what I'd have to give the greatest weight.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

If it was me I'd look a little further to find the right bull.

 

[gberry]

I wouldn't use any of those bulls on heifers, especially the 2 with Bundaleer Xroad close up in their pedigree. If I were you, I'd just call Diana and ask her about the bulls and if she has any suitable for heifers. I'm sure she would be glad to discuss it, and I have found her to give good reliable information.

 

[angus9259]

I wouldn't use any of those bulls on heifers, especially the 2 with Bundaleer Xroad close up in their pedigree. If I were you, I'd just call Diana and ask her about the bulls and if she has any suitable for heifers. I'm sure she would be glad to discuss it, and I have found her to give good reliable information.

So you're suggesting the EPDs may actually be an accurate reflection of calving potential?

 

[gberry]

I wouldn't use any of those bulls on heifers, especially the 2 with Bundaleer Xroad close up in their pedigree. If I were you, I'd just call Diana and ask her about the bulls and if she has any suitable for heifers. I'm sure she would be glad to discuss it, and I have found her to give good reliable information.

So you're suggesting the EPDs may actually be an accurate reflection of calving potential?

I doubt these low accuracy EPDs will truly reflect the calving potential. It may move up or down as these bulls get progeny on the ground. I do know Bundaleer Xroad is a fairly popular sire and his BW epd has not dropped at all and is one of the highest in the breed. I personally wouldn't risk it, but one of the problems with MGs is there are a limited number of sire prospects to choose from.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

I wouldn't use any of those bulls on heifers, especially the 2 with Bundaleer Xroad close up in their pedigree. If I were you, I'd just call Diana and ask her about the bulls and if she has any suitable for heifers. I'm sure she would be glad to discuss it, and I have found her to give good reliable information.

So you're suggesting the EPDs may actually be an accurate reflection of calving potential?

I doubt these low accuracy EPDs will truly reflect the calving potential. It may move up or down as these bulls get progeny on the ground. I do know Bundaleer Xroad is a fairly popular sire and his BW epd has not dropped at all and is one of the highest in the breed. I personally wouldn't risk it, but one of the problems with MGs is there are a limited number of sire prospects to choose from.

Mitch... I know Diana personally and she is not going to sell you something that will give you problems...tell her you have heifers and she will find a good fit for you. I agree with everything Gabe says about Xroad... Just FYI I am retaining a future herdsire out of her ER Tor...I bought 10 head from her last summer and one momma inparticular gave me an EXCEPTIONAL bullcalf. Keep looking at Murray Grey.. you won't be sorry.