Cattlemen..."Serious" advice needed

[MTplainsman]

I could use your help and ideas. Any kind of help would be appreciated, but I need advice based on experience, not assumptions or guesses. Heres the deal...

I am facing the point of selling near half my herd by next spring, due to old age. I bought this half as "short termers" and got two good years out of them. They "must" sell before they go rough on me! Some are already showing thier age.

Now then, I have a smaller herd of 120 cows. I have to sell roughly half or more of this number. I figure when all is said and done, I will let go 65-70 head. I have only had cows now for two years, and of course they are a "l-o-n-g" ways from being payed off as well as turning much of a profit for me. So, here I am, facing to buy back expensive cows in the spring, in which will keep me in debt for so much longer.

I have been pushing around the idea of keeping just 30 pairs, enough for a herd bull, and just take on bout 90 or so lease cows. Is there any sand to this leasing idea? Is this a reasonable option for a profit these days? What are things I should concider going this route? How do you make leasing work? What's the "share" ratio? What must I supply? What must they supply? PLEASE! I need any words on this subject I can get. I thank you all for any help. Joel

 

[grannysoo]

I think that you have a lot of different issues here. If you're having to ask all of these leasing questions, then my answer to you is that you don't need to be in the cattle leasing business...

As to the others, sell what you need to sell, get out of debt, reduce your herd to whatever size is necessary and then grow it DEBT FREE!

If you're going to the bank to borrow money to buy cows, you need to think your entire business plan.

 

[Sir Loin]

MTplainsman,

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying.

I am facing the point of selling near half my herd by next spring, due to old age. I bought this half as "short termers" and got two good years out of them. They "must" sell before they go rough on me! Some are already showing thier age.

?????????????? Hummmmm?
Let me put it this way. You need to stop right here and rethink your buying practices.

When I buy a cow, I buy her based on what she should produce during the rest of her lifetime. Ie. 2,4,6 etc calves.
And I know that if I pay $1,000 for the cow, she will need to produce at least two calves worth $500. each to break even and the third calf will be the beginning of showing a profit.
So what’s wrong with holding onto them now that you should have reached the profitability stage of your investment?

If some are just now showing their age they probably have at least 3 to 5 more good calves in them before they start having problems.
So why sell them and go into hock to buy younger cows when you can wait 3 to 5 years and use those profits to pay cash for younger cows then?
SL

 

[3waycross]

Definately not my area of expertise but I found myself looking for more info, before a decision woulld be made.

1-what did they cost to begin with
2- are they bred now.
3-like Sir loin says why not run them out until they are actually wore out and sell them for salvage.

I am just guessing but wouldn't that help spread out the inital investment and give you some time to raise some paid for replacements?

 

[MTplainsman]

Ok, I better explain a little more of my situation... I agree with keeping the ST cows till they won't produce any more or are gummers. I paid $1100 for them with gaurenteed calf at the side. Whe the prices where sky rocketing, that was one heck of a deal. I got my money out of them, but a third calf would make my profit of them for sure. They are now 12 and 13 yo, and though that isn't bad for "farmer" type cows, it is for "range" type cows, in which many of my Black ST cows are. My terrible problem however, is that I have to sell a large amount of these ST cows due to land payments, beginning expenses, and unrelated cattle expenses. To much to explain, but in order to keep back replacement heifers of my good genetics, and pay for all my other bills, I have to let most of these STs go. It is a BAD situation to be in and BAD choices to have to make, but if I am gonna try and keep going and make this all work, I have to let them go. Since I do, I have an opening for around 60 to 90 or so pairs, so leasing is the option I am trying to learn about. I could lease out the extra grass for the time being, but you only make enough money to cover taxes that way in this country, so that is not an option.

 

[3waycross]

Ok, I better explain a little more of my situation... I agree with keeping the ST cows till they won't produce any more or are gummers. I paid $1100 for them with gaurenteed calf at the side. Whe the prices where sky rocketing, that was one heck of a deal. I got my money out of them, but a third calf would make my profit of them for sure. They are now 12 and 13 yo, and though that isn't bad for "farmer" type cows, it is for "range" type cows, in which many of my Black ST cows are. My terrible problem however, is that I have to sell a large amount of these ST cows due to land payments, beginning expenses, and unrelated cattle expenses. To much to explain, but in order to keep back replacement heifers of my good genetics, and pay for all my other bills, I have to let most of these STs go. It is a BAD situation to be in and BAD choices to have to make, but if I am gonna try and keep going and make this all work, I have to let them go. Since I do, I have an opening for around 60 to 90 or so pairs, so leasing is the option I am trying to learn about. I could lease out the extra grass for the time being, but you only make enough money to cover taxes that way in this country, so that is not an option.

Again not my area of expertise but after you sold the older cows and got caught up, would your bank do a short term deal on some feeder calves so you could try to make some money on the gain.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ok, I better explain a little more of my situation... I agree with keeping the ST cows till they won't produce any more or are gummers. I paid $1100 for them with gaurenteed calf at the side. Whe the prices where sky rocketing, that was one heck of a deal. I got my money out of them, but a third calf would make my profit of them for sure. They are now 12 and 13 yo, and though that isn't bad for "farmer" type cows, it is for "range" type cows, in which many of my Black ST cows are. My terrible problem however, is that I have to sell a large amount of these ST cows due to land payments, beginning expenses, and unrelated cattle expenses. To much to explain, but in order to keep back replacement heifers of my good genetics, and pay for all my other bills, I have to let most of these STs go. It is a BAD situation to be in and BAD choices to have to make, but if I am gonna try and keep going and make this all work, I have to let them go. Since I do, I have an opening for around 60 to 90 or so pairs, so leasing is the option I am trying to learn about. I could lease out the extra grass for the time being, but you only make enough money to cover taxes that way in this country, so that is not an option.

Why do you think a 13 year old cow is old? Have you checked there teeth? Do you have crappy pastures so there teeth are wearing out? If I sold every 12 year old cow around here I would be out of business.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I think buying older bred cows, getting a calf or two out of them and then selling them bred before they are all salvage cows is a good way to get started. Hopefully the steers can about pay the bills and you can keep the heifers then get your money back out of the cows. There's no money in it for you until you get things paid for.

I don't know much about leasing cows but it's always sounded to me like it would be hard to make any money at it. By the time you pay the cattle owner and pay for lease land or interest on land you are working for free.

One way to make money at cattle is a bad, none neighborly thing to do but if you buy good open cattle and sell them bred you can make money. You need to be able to recognise cows that probably won't breed. The problem is you are bringing in cattle that may carry diseases.

 

[Brandonm2]

I agree with Caustic a good 12-13 year old cow ought to have 2 to 4 good years left in her. IF they are really visibly breaking down, are you sure they are only 12 or 13 year olds.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I agree with Caustic a good 12-13 year old cow ought to have 2 to 4 good years left in her. IF they are really visibly breaking down, are you sure they are only 12 or 13 year olds.

I'm not so sure northeastern Montana is very accommodating to cows that age.

 

[Brandonm2]

If the cows fall apart prematurely I would be firing the person who sold me their sires.

 

[Ned Jr.]

If the cows fall apart prematurely I would be firing the person who sold me their sires.

Doesn't really matter. By the time you figured out the breeders of the sires of those 12 year old cows they would be out of business anyway.

 

[Brandonm2]

If the cows fall apart prematurely I would be firing the person who sold me their sires.

Doesn't really matter. By the time you figured out the breeders of the sires of those 12 year old cows they would be out of business anyway.

That's true. Though the cows he posted in the photos in the other string don't look broke down AT ALL.

 

[Rookie]

I think that you have a lot of different issues here. If you're having to ask all of these leasing questions, then my answer to you is that you don't need to be in the cattle leasing business...

Bingo!!!!!................ BTW...... for any new folks what don't know.......Caustic Burno ain't a real person, he a be figment of someone's imagination. Made-up, fake, an alter ego.

 

[bigbull338]

one thing i see is your carring alot of debt load.an the debt is what is hurting you right now.an if you sale to meny st cows.your cashflow will be in a mess.unless you can pay your debt load down with the sale of the cows.the calf sales should be making your payment.as said 12 yr old cows have 3 or 4 more good years left in them.less they are falling a part on you.

 

[backhoeboogie]

as said 12 yr old cows have 3 or 4 more good years left in them.

Absolutely. Some could have another 8 good years left depending on the breed.