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CopeMan

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How many of you all out there like or are involved in cattle showing? If your in the seedstock buisness , is winning shows what really helps market your cattle? What makes all the AI bulls so famous? I never have understood this. In my opinion cattle showing is alright, its never something I got to excited about, Ive had opportunities to show cattle but turned it down. I love to look at cattle and see them, and watch them. really and truly for me I would rather go and sit at the cattle market all day and see cattle. Which I do quite frequently. Thats like I would rather go coonhunting with a bunch of ole' hounds instead of sittin around at a dog show watchin coonhounds. Just my opinion.
 

txshowmom

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For us its just something we like to do. My kids don't have a lot of things that most kids their age do because they are outside working their animals everday. Our main show is our county fair and its a lot of work to do for 1 show so we show the TCCA circuit. It gives them the oportunity to be with other kids that have the same interests and they get rewarded for all their hard work. Do we always win, NO. Do we still go anyway, YES. We like it win or loose.
 

TheBullLady

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I show open cattle.. because it gets a lot of exposure for your cattle.. because I can talk with other producers.. and because I can get a few days off work to do what I like best.. talk and look at cattle.

You really should enjoy it if you want to do it. My husband could care less, so I generally take a fellow breeder who is also a good friend, and we have a blast! But I really enjoy talking with the folks that wander up and down the aisles, and the other breeders.
 

txag

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we don't show our own cattle but we have calves go out with juniors.....it still gets us exposure but saves us all the time & work.
 

Alan

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But, who buys the cattle from the big show bulls? With the little knowledge I have of showing and raising cattle on the hobby ranch, I don't think that the big out fits go to the cow palace to buy that $10,000 calf out of the current world champion. From what I have heard "seed stock producers provide stock to other show people. Seed stock bulls do not have the same traits as the range bulls, ie, derablity, toughness, calving ease, growth rates, (I realize show bulls are bred for good epd's also, but maybe not as realistic of epd's).

For example; most (90%) of the hereford bulls I have seen on black baldy operations are horned, I believe this is because horned has a rounded skull and are naturally easier birthing cattle. At any rate, right or wrong about birthing rates of horned, 90% are horned hereford, doesn't leave much room for the polled bulls, world champs are not.

I'm not saying that the range bulls aren't great stock just not show stock, for practical use they are probably better stock than show stock (?)

Opinions?
Alan
 

ollie

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Alan":1gzeqy9o said:
I don't think that the big out fits go to the cow palace to buy that $10,000 calf out of the current world champion. From what I have heard "seed stock producers provide stock to other show people. Seed stock bulls do not have the same traits as the range bulls, ie, derablity, toughness, calving ease, growth rates, (I realize show bulls are bred for good epd's also, but maybe not as realistic of epd's).
I assume you are serious. Alan if "show" people provide seedstock to other show people who do the other seedstock producers get their cattle from? Other producers that don't show?I realize that there are great show bulls that are complete flops there are also great show bulls that are great successes. Shows are like anything else in life , the people that have some intelligence and ability can spot the fakes , the frauds , etc. while those that have more money than sense try hard to balance the two out at shows. In relation to the part of your post that implies that seedstock from ranches that do not show are superior all that I can say is hogwash. Cattle are cattle and it makes no difference what forum they are displayed in. The only time I can't tell good cattle from sorry ones are when they are starved. Skinny cattle all look the same.There are alot of good comercial ranches that purchase all their bulls at Denver or Reginia for example and nowhere else. I have never been to the cow palace and have no affection for the left coast so I probably never will go but I would imagine it is the same there.
 

ollie

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cowboy13":zh09gmlg said:
If you took a show bull and turned him out on pasture he would die cuz he wouldn't know how to drink out of a tank or eat cubes.
I am quite sure you are right and he would have missed that fatherly figure that you can provide a non show bull such as teaching him how to breed cows.
 

TheBullLady

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lol... we bought a bull in March that won his class in Denver, and he's managed to figure out how to drink out of a tank and to go for long periods of time without being fed. And didn't need any instruction on breeding cows.
 

la4angus

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TheBullLady":2gs0rnzk said:
lol... we bought a bull in March that won his class in Denver, and he's managed to figure out how to drink out of a tank and to go for long periods of time without being fed. And didn't need any instruction on breeding cows.
BullLady
This bull was probaly given instrucctions on all this before you bought him.
There is a special school that they can be enrolled that teaches them all this plus other classes.
:lol:
I'm suprised that the original owners didn't give you the diploma when you purchased the bull. :lol: :)
 

Alan

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I assume you are serious. Alan if "show" people provide seedstock to other show people who do the other seedstock producers get their cattle from? Other producers that don't show?

Olllie, I feel that the majority of seed stock produces sell to other seed stock producers, this isn't a "chicken or the egg" question.

Cattle are cattle and it makes no difference what forum they are displayed in.

EPD's - do you think it makes a difference to someone running 3000 head what the BW epd is of his bulls? Do you think someone with 3000 would want a bull that gave him calves that hit the ground in 15 minutes and are up and running in another 15 minutes or a bull who's calves are always needing pulled or still born...I think the later bull would be hamburger soon. All cattle are not equal...cattle are NOT cattle. Most Show bulls BW epd's scare me why would I want to be pulling and losing 100 pounders? Sure these bulls produce 900 lb 6 month old calves, but what is the cost of doing this after graining and pampering them?

There are alot of good comercial ranches that purchase all their bulls at Denver or Reginia for example and nowhere else

No I think alot of commercial ranches buy thier bulls from ranch sales and (I think they are call) bull stations (where ranchers take certain bulls to be tested for various traits such as marbling, ect.).

In relation to the part of your post that implies that seedstock from ranches that do not show are superior all that I can say is hogwash.

Okay Ollie you got a little under my skin, so I'll say in all kindness... next time you read a post...stand a little closer to the screen. I never said range bulls or seed stock was superior, I said they had different traits, I may not have made this part clear, but I also feel they are two different markets. Show stock and commerical stock, and for the most part show stock do not make good commercial stock...key word is most, I didn't say all. I'm also refering to purebreed ranches, for the most part, not an outfit the crosses smaller framed cattle with beefmasters, camparable sized cattle, angus hereford type.
 

txag

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Alan":25beufa4 said:
For example; most (90%) of the hereford bulls I have seen on black baldy operations are horned

i'm not going to argue about "what you've seen" but you may want to look around some more.

Alan":25beufa4 said:
I believe this is because horned has a rounded skull and are naturally easier birthing cattle.

i believe you're wrong. you may want to double-check those skulls.

Alan":25beufa4 said:
At any rate, right or wrong about birthing rates of horned, 90% are horned hereford, doesn't leave much room for the polled bulls, world champs are not.

hmmm....someone else who didn't realize the topic was about "showing cattle & not about herefords or horned vs polled". fyi: horned hereford breeders show cattle and have "world champs" too.

you also may want to check your definition of "seedstock". it has nothing about showing in it. there are many, many seedstock breeders who do not show their cattle. many of these are not selling to other seedstock breeders but are selling to the commercial cattleman. those "ranch sales" you're referring to are also called seedstock sales & those people are "seedstock" producers. while "show" animals can be "seedstock" animals, "seedstock" animals do not have to be "show" animals.

as i mentioned earlier, we don't show our own cattle. our primary goal is to produce herd bulls for commercial cattleman & good quality replacement females that function & raise a calf on grass. if a kid happens to come by & decides that one of calves will do well in the show ring, then we get that extra exposure. if not, our cattle speak for themselves in the pasture.
 

Frankie

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CopeMan":24aoyoeo said:
How many of you all out there like or are involved in cattle showing? If your in the seedstock buisness , is winning shows what really helps market your cattle? What makes all the AI bulls so famous? I never have understood this. In my opinion cattle showing is alright, its never something I got to excited about, Ive had opportunities to show cattle but turned it down. I love to look at cattle and see them, and watch them. really and truly for me I would rather go and sit at the cattle market all day and see cattle. Which I do quite frequently. Thats like I would rather go coonhunting with a bunch of ole' hounds instead of sittin around at a dog show watchin coonhounds. Just my opinion.

We run a small registered Angus operation and we are not involved in the show business at all. IMO, the show end and the performance end of the Angus business are barely related. I know some of my bull customers well enough to not even mention that the bull he's interested in is a half brother to the grand champion at Denver. They want to hear BW, EPDs, ADG, IMF, etc.

What makes AI bulls famous is advertising and production. Every year you'll see in the Angus Journal young bulls bought for thousands of $$, then advertised heavily for a year, then they disappear. But a good bull that produces all over the country will still be selling semen after he's dead. The Angus bull N Bar Emulation EXT didn't get popular until he was about eight years old and his semen is expensive if you can find it. But I could give you a list of yearling Angus bulls that were "hot" for a few months and then cooled off completely.

I know several people who have a few head of show stock for their kids or grandkids to play with. There's money to be made there and things for kids to learn, but sometimes the show stuff leaks over the their performance herds and that can be a problem. Some small producers claim showing gives them an opportunity to get their genetics before the public and that's fine. But I believe performance testing bulls at a major bull test station does the same thing and gets them before the people who are really interested in buying my bulls. And if I can produce bull test station winners, I must be doing something right with my cowherd, thus my cows or heifers sell well, too.

I think in the Angus business, you need to know which market you're aiming for, show business or commercial cattlemen. I'd be more interested in the Angus show business if they told you the breeding of the heifers as they walked into the showring, or posted EPDs.

Another opinion, for what it's worth.....
 

Alan

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Thanks Frankie, for your opinion, I'm glad someone was able to express a similar view to mine and make it sound intellegent. As I said in the beginning I'm not very experienced, yet, but trying to educate myself. Your view is what I have been able to determine is happening from going to shows and researching genetics at production sales. As I said some show bulls make it but most are flashes in the pan. Most show bulls aren't for the big producer outfits.
 

Alan

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Alan wrote:
I believe this is because horned has a rounded skull and are naturally easier birthing cattle.


i believe you're wrong. you may want to double-check those skulls
.

Just what I was told by two big commerical producers in my area, one is the biggest, 30,000 acres of prime river bottom. He may be wrong, but we all continue to be educated, on this earth, until we die. if I continue to hear their theory of horned cattle and birthing ease is wrong I'll be better educated.

Alan
 

txag

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Alan":2qgx78pu said:
if I continue to hear their theory of horned cattle and birthing ease is wrong I'll be better educated.

i just think it's wise to become informed before spreading false information.

it's amazing the amount of skull that has to be scraped out of horned cattle during a cosmetic dehorn to make them look polled.
 

Campground Cattle

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txag":2dvxns5w said:
Alan":2dvxns5w said:
if I continue to hear their theory of horned cattle and birthing ease is wrong I'll be better educated.

i just think it's wise to become informed before spreading false information.

it's amazing the amount of skull that has to be scraped out of horned cattle during a cosmetic dehorn to make them look polled.

Txag good point.
 

ollie

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Frankie":oni1md8c said:
CopeMan":oni1md8c said:
How many of you all out there like or are involved in cattle showing? If your in the seedstock buisness , is winning shows what really helps market your cattle? What makes all the AI bulls so famous? I never have understood this. In my opinion cattle showing is alright, its never something I got to excited about, Ive had opportunities to show cattle but turned it down. I love to look at cattle and see them, and watch them. really and truly for me I would rather go and sit at the cattle market all day and see cattle. Which I do quite frequently. Thats like I would rather go coonhunting with a bunch of ole' hounds instead of sittin around at a dog show watchin coonhounds. Just my opinion.

We run a small registered Angus operation and we are not involved in the show business at all. IMO, the show end and the performance end of the Angus business are barely related. I know some of my bull customers well enough to not even mention that the bull he's interested in is a half brother to the grand champion at Denver. They want to hear BW, EPDs, ADG, IMF, etc.

What makes AI bulls famous is advertising and production. Every year you'll see in the Angus Journal young bulls bought for thousands of $$, then advertised heavily for a year, then they disappear. But a good bull that produces all over the country will still be selling semen after he's dead. The Angus bull N Bar Emulation EXT didn't get popular until he was about eight years old and his semen is expensive if you can find it. But I could give you a list of yearling Angus bulls that were "hot" for a few months and then cooled off completely.

I know several people who have a few head of show stock for their kids or grandkids to play with. There's money to be made there and things for kids to learn, but sometimes the show stuff leaks over the their performance herds and that can be a problem. Some small producers claim showing gives them an opportunity to get their genetics before the public and that's fine. But I believe performance testing bulls at a major bull test station does the same thing and gets them before the people who are really interested in buying my bulls. And if I can produce bull test station winners, I must be doing something right with my cowherd, thus my cows or heifers sell well, too.

I think in the Angus business, you need to know which market you're aiming for, show business or commercial cattlemen. I'd be more interested in the Angus show business if they told you the breeding of the heifers as they walked into the showring, or posted EPDs.

Another opinion, for what it's worth.....[/quoteFrankie ], I am sure you know more than I do , but all the shows that I have been to in the last several years they listed the epd,s in the show program and handed a carcass sheet to the judge. I will admit however that I havn't sat and watched a black show all the way through. I have never have even picked up a show program. I would think however the way the breed promotes their epd's , that they would be in the show program. They will also usually anounce the class winners sire as well.Btw I would say that 878 calves that I think you said you use would make up a large part of the show strings. I also know ext calves were the deal for awhile till the stupid disposition got the best of them.
 

Frankie

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Ollie said:
"I am sure you know more than I do , but all the shows that I have been to in the last several years they listed the epd,s in the show program and handed a carcass sheet to the judge. I will admit however that I havn't sat and watched a black show all the way through. I have never have even picked up a show program. I would think however the way the breed promotes their epd's , that they would be in the show program. They will also usually anounce the class winners sire as well.Btw I would say that 878 calves that I think you said you use would make up a large part of the show strings. I also know ext calves were the deal for awhile till the stupid disposition got the best of them."

I'm not sure that I know more about the show ring than you do, Ollie. If so, you're in trouble. The only shows we go to are local shows where we know either kids or cattle that are being shown. If they print up a program, I haven't seen it so don't know if it has EPDs or not. I do know a lady whose daughters were very, very successful showing Angus. She still raises show calves and seems to do quite well at it. Her heifers are often high sellers at sales we both attend. Sometimes her heifer's BW EPD will hurt their sale though. When I mentioned using EPDs in the show ring, she was very definite that the judges only look at EPDs as a final discriminator between two heifers. But, IMO (again), the Angus show business and Angus beef business have very little in common. Disposition might have been a reason EXT didn't make it in the show ring, but I'd bet it was more because he was a moderate framed bull. Plus, his daughters aren't necessarily as attractive as some other bulls. 878 is probably showing up in the show ring, but don't think he's in the running as the "Show Sire of the Year" or whatever title they give the bull who sired the most winners. Our calves sired by him have been pretty moderate framed, too; he doesn't seem to pass on the frame that his sire, 036 did, plus ours are slick haired (like 036 calves) and that's a negative for the show ring, too.
 

Alan

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i just think it's wise to become informed before spreading false information.

it's amazing the amount of skull that has to be scraped out of horned cattle during a cosmetic dehorn to make them look polled.

Tx,

Most of the time I really respect the comments you make, but I really don't think we are on the same page on this... please educate me, what are you talking about? I'm talking about a polled Hereford over a Horned Hereford. I've been told more than once and have looked myself, a horned calf has a "tapered" (pointed) skull and a polled calf has more of a flat topline to the skull. I raise Polled Herefords, in last years calf crop I got one horned (not scurred) calf and I could tell it was probably horned before horns developed.

This has nothing to do with cosmetic dehorning. My point is birthing ease with horned cattle compared to polled cattle. (yes I realize we are way off topic).

Alan
 

Caustic Burno

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Alan":209eu130 said:
i just think it's wise to become informed before spreading false information.

it's amazing the amount of skull that has to be scraped out of horned cattle during a cosmetic dehorn to make them look polled.

Tx,

Most of the time I really respect the comments you make, but I really don't think we are on the same page on this... please educate me, what are you talking about? I'm talking about a polled Hereford over a Horned Hereford. I've been told more than once and have looked myself, a horned calf has a "tapered" (pointed) skull and a polled calf has more of a flat topline to the skull. I raise Polled Herefords, in last years calf crop I got one horned (not scurred) calf and I could tell it was probably horned before horns developed.

This has nothing to do with cosmetic dehorning. My point is birthing ease with horned cattle compared to polled cattle. (yes I realize we are way off topic).

Alan

I really do not believe it is near as critical to worry about the shape of a calves head. It's about birth weight and cattle with a history of calving ease. IMHO horned versus polled is six of one, half a dozen of the other.
 
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