Cattle Pricing

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cowgal604 said:
Auctions need to be banned because they are cruel. It's barbaric and it's takes zero consideration into animal welfare. I am a farmer not an animal abuser.

But I love the whole socialism doesn't work here. Well keep doing what y'all are doing because it sure is working for ya haha. (That sarcasm, you can also google that term)
you dont even have a clue, farmer really, you have pets, auctions are cruel, I doubt you have even been to one, you just come on here to promote your idiotic ideas, wait tell your generation takes over, lol, you dont even have a clue, and that's the sad part of it, but keep on cheerleading.
 
you dont even have a clue, farmer really, you have pets, auctions are cruel, I doubt you have even been to one, you just come on here to promote your idiotic ideas, wait tell your generation takes over, lol, you dont even have a clue, and that's the sad part of it, but keep on cheerleading.


Amen
 
HDRider said:
Lucky said:
I'm with everyone on the locally sourced and sold beef and think it would work. My question is were are these local cattle going to be fed until they are at killing weight? Feedlots don't work just anywhere. Most would still be selling at weening size or backgrounding for 60 days before going to a bigger operation to finish them. I just don't see a huge benefit to the avg producer. I'm not being negative just wondering how it would work.

Lucky,
I have been beating my head on the local beef problem. The feeder issue we can solve. I have guys lined up to feed out in numbers of 100 to 200 each. And many folks would do it. The problem I am running into is selling. Getting stores to carry it is hard. Selling direct in meat stores seems even harder. Retailers are married to the way they are setup now.

This is a tough nut to crack.

I have been going back and forth on FB with a young lady who advocates for the big packers. She is very well informed and a talented communicator. She defends their every move. I just do not think we can win against the big boys. They are too well funded, too well organized, too entrenched and too powerful.
I think you're right on the feeder calves, on the fat side of it not sure, in our area we have 4 butcher shops with in 50 miles, wish I had 10 more to bring in August for my appointment, I have had more calls for freezer beef in the last month than I have ever had, I still dont know what the answer is for the big producers.
 
The sad reality is that our culture has been conditioned, for a few generations now, to believe everyone should eat for cheap. Our government leaders have promoted and implemented this because it's an effective means to pacify the masses. Full bellies do not rebel historically. Yet, the same culture has no problem dropping a grand on the latest iphone(even though there is nothing wrong with their current phone).
Most Americans are so far removed from agriculture that they have little idea, nor concern about their food; so long as it's cheap. Operational costs in this country make it almost impossible to compete in the global market. America's blessings of prosperity post WW2, have now become her curse. A correction is coming and many in agriculture, especially those propped up by govt programs, are going to feel the pain.
We keep asking how do you fix this? The primary question actually is "can this be fixed?" Or have we gone too far down the rabbit hole and there is no way back...
 
cowgal604 said:
Auctions need to be banned because they are cruel. It's barbaric and it's takes zero consideration into animal welfare. I am a farmer not an animal abuser.

But I love the whole socialism doesn't work here. Well keep doing what y'all are doing because it sure is working for ya haha. (That sarcasm, you can also google that term)

With all due respect ma'am, I just haven't seen that here in America. I have been to several cattle auctions in TX, NY, IA, and IN. All have had water and hay available to the cattle. I have yet to witness anyone beating on the cattle. That would just be bad for business wouldn't it? I'm not saying it never happens, but I believe it's rare and not the norm. More cattle get mistreated at their "home" than at an auction I suspect, and i still think that is pretty rare; as the majority of cattle producers genuinely enjoy and value their cattle. I don't see what's cruel or barbaric about walking an animal through a ring, in front of a crowd of people potentially interested in purchasing said animal, and returning it to a holding pen to await load out.
 
My 2 cents, from decades studying politics, vet med, public health, economics......

There is no fix. All animals, including humans, want the most for the least effort (or money). This allows us to accumulate more useless stuff, and also allows us more time to stare at cell phones. That is the dream.

Goods or services can be produced cheaper on a larger scale, as costs per unit of production/sevice are lower.

Which is why we all like Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Amazon, etc. And we also buy tractors from John Deere, not some local guy that could build us one. Assembly line production is cheapest for tractors or beef.

Another benefit of being big is you can afford and justify having lobbyists that write legislation for their congress buddies to sign, which gives them competitive advantage against the little guys. And you can have people devoted to getting millions in government welfare.

Our government is a corporatocracy. There used to be a Constitution that prevented all such actions, but it is completely ignored. We are now all hogs at the government trough, and the little guy gets the leftovers the corporations leave behind.

Another way we get cheap stuff is having foreign workers willing to do crap work for less, which are who fills our packing plants. BTW, Hispanics more prone to obesity/diabetes, which is risk factor for serious covid illness, or the next bug to come along.

The only way to make some change is education, but that won't affect many.

You would hope some would see the problem with having so few packing plants affecting our food supply, whether affecting supply, or food safety.

Then there are animal welfare concerns you would hope some would care about.

"All have had water and hay available to the cattle. I have yet to witness anyone beating on the cattle. That would just be bad for business wouldn't it? I'm not saying it never happens, but I believe it's rare and not the norm."

Actually, the biggest problems are stress and feed.

Stress with immunosuppression results in pneumonia and other issues. Few understand the whole stress thing. While we understand what is going on when handling and shipping cattle, the calves do not. At each step, they think their life will end.

Stress from weaning, sorting, loading, transport, starving, dehydration, exhaust fumes, cold, heat, co-mingling and social stress (new pecking order), new environment, new feed bunks, new water troughs, new feed, etc, etc. Then there's lack of shade and heat stress, especially in black cattle that the industry demands.

Years ago, I had a Merck manual in which was stated, "Considering all the stress, we shouldn't ask why any cattle die, but rather why do any live"

Here's the latest version:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/respiratory-system/respiratory-diseases-of-cattle/enzootic-pneumonia-of-calves-and-shipping-fever-pneumonia#v329338

Then there's the whole problem with high carbohydrate rations (grain) causing acidosis, rumen ulceration, liver abscesses, etc.

Antibiotics to the rescue for diseases we create, which raises other concerns.

But again, these issues don't matter, because this is the cheapest way to make pounds of beef. Hauling calves hundreds of miles to auctions, feedlots, and feeding mostly grain to a ruminant designed for grass.

Another factor favoring grain feeding is cheap energy needed to produce it. Cheap if you ignore the trillions we spent on wars to secure the oil.

One hope for smaller producers would be for government to outlaw production methods that rountinely make animals sick in order to save/make money. But again, corporations would never allow any such laws.

Usually when I bring up these issues, cattlemen are offended. So all that's left is to take whatever money the big boys offer. If you can't make it, get a job at the packing plant or Walmart.
 
cowgal604 said:
Auctions need to be banned because they are cruel. It's barbaric and it's takes zero consideration into animal welfare. I am a farmer not an animal abuser.

But I love the whole socialism doesn't work here. Well keep doing what y'all are doing because it sure is working for ya haha. (That sarcasm, you can also google that term)
El Rio, Oklahoma had 13,300 head this week. Where would they go or what would they be worth without an auction. I need several calves next week. How would I know who was selling without an auction? I respect your opinion but don't think you understand the real world.
 
I buy something every week. Sometimes a few sometime several. If I didn't have an auction to get them from where would I get them. I'm a small operation so how would a feedlot with 100,000 head get calves each week.
 
From this thread ,talking about cheap, want to pay for cheap medicine and cheap food, or do you want to pay a little extra and support our country and the people here, the people that think we need other countries are week and dont remember were all the technology came from, it wasn't from China, they produce nothing but cheap labor and a virus, nothing more.
 
djinwa said:
My 2 cents, from decades studying politics, vet med, public health, economics......

There is no fix. All animals, including humans, want the most for the least effort (or money). This allows us to accumulate more useless stuff, and also allows us more time to stare at cell phones. That is the dream.

Goods or services can be produced cheaper on a larger scale, as costs per unit of production/sevice are lower.

Which is why we all like Costco, Walmart, Home Depot, Amazon, etc. And we also buy tractors from John Deere, not some local guy that could build us one. Assembly line production is cheapest for tractors or beef.

Another benefit of being big is you can afford and justify having lobbyists that write legislation for their congress buddies to sign, which gives them competitive advantage against the little guys. And you can have people devoted to getting millions in government welfare.

Our government is a corporatocracy. There used to be a Constitution that prevented all such actions, but it is completely ignored. We are now all hogs at the government trough, and the little guy gets the leftovers the corporations leave behind.

Another way we get cheap stuff is having foreign workers willing to do crap work for less, which are who fills our packing plants. BTW, Hispanics more prone to obesity/diabetes, which is risk factor for serious covid illness, or the next bug to come along.

The only way to make some change is education, but that won't affect many.

You would hope some would see the problem with having so few packing plants affecting our food supply, whether affecting supply, or food safety.

Then there are animal welfare concerns you would hope some would care about.

"All have had water and hay available to the cattle. I have yet to witness anyone beating on the cattle. That would just be bad for business wouldn't it? I'm not saying it never happens, but I believe it's rare and not the norm."

Actually, the biggest problems are stress and feed.

Stress with immunosuppression results in pneumonia and other issues. Few understand the whole stress thing. While we understand what is going on when handling and shipping cattle, the calves do not. At each step, they think their life will end.

Stress from weaning, sorting, loading, transport, starving, dehydration, exhaust fumes, cold, heat, co-mingling and social stress (new pecking order), new environment, new feed bunks, new water troughs, new feed, etc, etc. Then there's lack of shade and heat stress, especially in black cattle that the industry demands.

Years ago, I had a Merck manual in which was stated, "Considering all the stress, we shouldn't ask why any cattle die, but rather why do any live"

Here's the latest version:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/respiratory-system/respiratory-diseases-of-cattle/enzootic-pneumonia-of-calves-and-shipping-fever-pneumonia#v329338

Then there's the whole problem with high carbohydrate rations (grain) causing acidosis, rumen ulceration, liver abscesses, etc.

Antibiotics to the rescue for diseases we create, which raises other concerns.

But again, these issues don't matter, because this is the cheapest way to make pounds of beef. Hauling calves hundreds of miles to auctions, feedlots, and feeding mostly grain to a ruminant designed for grass.

Another factor favoring grain feeding is cheap energy needed to produce it. Cheap if you ignore the trillions we spent on wars to secure the oil.

One hope for smaller producers would be for government to outlaw production methods that rountinely make animals sick in order to save/make money. But again, corporations would never allow any such laws.

Usually when I bring up these issues, cattlemen are offended. So all that's left is to take whatever money the big boys offer. If you can't make it, get a job at the packing plant or Walmart.

First, thank you for the new word - corporatocracy - It sums up our government, and maybe the world government, better than any other single word could.

Second, thanks for paying attention, and for thinking, and for sharing your thoughts. They are now my thoughts.
 
kenny thomas said:
I buy something every week. Sometimes a few sometime several. If I didn't have an auction to get them from where would I get them. I'm a small operation so how would a feedlot with 100,000 head get calves each week.

Kenny - I am not saying everything is wrong, it just seems that a few things that are right are missing.

Auctions work. We simply need other ways to move what we produce.
 
The hardest part to direct marketing is supplying a consistent product in sufficient quantity. Particularly if you are trying to supply local butcher shops. Hamburger is easy to produce, it is the high choice and better steaks that they may sell 100 or more of a day that become the issue. When that guy disappoints a paying customer he starts looking for another supplier.

On an individual level they still want a quality and consistent product. There will always be the Wal Mart wonders out there and you won't make money on them. They are trying to get as many cigarettes, tanks of gas and tattoos as they can out of what is already a small paycheck. Keeping their groceries cheap is the only way they get those things. You are looking to sell to the social group above that and so you need a product above that for making money. In the middle is a lot of hard working folks doing what they can to feed the best they can to their family. Educating and establishing working relationships with this group is the key to success. They will pay the little bit of premium you need to make the money work but you have to be able to explain why there is that premium.

There is a place in this business for all of us. Direct marketing doesn't fit every animal you have as a small producer or the guy with 1200 head as a general rule. Does the playing field need to be leveled a little bit, absolutely. However the system we have has evolved because it works. Now it is getting out of balance and it doesn't. So it will be tweaked and adjusted until it does again. Take the opportunity you have to explain to the public how the system works. Show them a better quality product when they come looking for it out of necessity or explain why it is you have no product to share. You want the playing field level grab a rake and start moving dirt.
 
SmokinM said:
The hardest part to direct marketing is supplying a consistent product in sufficient quantity. Particularly if you are trying to supply local butcher shops. Hamburger is easy to produce, it is the high choice and better steaks that they may sell 100 or more of a day that become the issue. When that guy disappoints a paying customer he starts looking for another supplier.

On an individual level they still want a quality and consistent product. There will always be the Wal Mart wonders out there and you won't make money on them. They are trying to get as many cigarettes, tanks of gas and tattoos as they can out of what is already a small paycheck. Keeping their groceries cheap is the only way they get those things. You are looking to sell to the social group above that and so you need a product above that for making money. In the middle is a lot of hard working folks doing what they can to feed the best they can to their family. Educating and establishing working relationships with this group is the key to success. They will pay the little bit of premium you need to make the money work but you have to be able to explain why there is that premium.

There is a place in this business for all of us. Direct marketing doesn't fit every animal you have as a small producer or the guy with 1200 head as a general rule. Does the playing field need to be leveled a little bit, absolutely. However the system we have has evolved because it works. Now it is getting out of balance and it doesn't. So it will be tweaked and adjusted until it does again. Take the opportunity you have to explain to the public how the system works. Show them a better quality product when they come looking for it out of necessity or explain why it is you have no product to share. You want the playing field level grab a rake and start moving dirt.

SmokinM, I agree with you about that direct marketing isn't for everyone and that in that kind of market quality is paramount.
I disagree though about the current system, working and having a place for everyone. This crisis has proven that the current system does not work. The only few that it works for are the monopolies themselves. If they continue to have their way the only place most American cattle farmers and ranchers are going to have is that of consumers just like the rest of the public, and they will be importing foreign beef and selling it at the same or greater profit levels. It is going to take more than mere tweaking to stop and correct this trend. This system has not been working for the American livestock producers, and this crisis has shown that it does not work for American consumers either. If something isn't changed our American producers are going to extinct then we as a nation will be at the mercy of multinational conglomerates, if a national security crisis were to arise then the reality could be very bad. We need to break up these monopolies into smaller regional facilities and have feedlots in more areas as well so that the supply chain is regional and competed for. There should still be stockyards order buyers and much of the existing system through that point could be basically the same. There used to not be any commercial vegetable growers in our area now a farmer right up the road from me grows and sells to a large grocery chain. The same principles should apply to meat as well.
 
Why would a legislature vote against COOL or MCOOL?

Is there a listing of the congressman that vote against this?
 
ccr said:
Why would a legislature vote against COOL or MCOOL?

Is there a listing of the congressman that vote against this?

We are in a trade agreement with Canada and Mexico that prevents mandatory labeling. We lost COOL when Canada and Mexico took us to the UN trade court.
 
Part of that was also due to the traveling of so many cattle from US to Canada and/or Mexico ... for feeding and finishing. It benefits both to keep it friendly since there is so much cattle trading back and forth. Ask anyone who lives along the border about selling feeders that go to a farm/ranch/feedlot that is just over the border in another "country" yet they are practically your next door neighbor with most not considering that they are "different" because of the citizenship status. I was in favor of the labeling that would have designated that it was from North American farmers.... however it was proposed. That would have satisfied the trade agreement wording and still given us a "COOL" type label.
We should be able to put a " USA" label on stuff that is truly raised here.... like stuff that is locally born and raised. But as with the stupid regulations that will not allow milk to say it is 96.75 % FAT FREE as whole milk is.... like all other beverages and foods that are "this % fat free" and all that ..... we are not allowed to actually say that our locally processed meat is from USA .... yes we can put our own labels on it... but the USDA regs require some wording and refuse to allow other wording....
 
farmerjan said:
Part of that was also due to the traveling of so many cattle from US to Canada and/or Mexico ... for feeding and finishing. It benefits both to keep it friendly since there is so much cattle trading back and forth. Ask anyone who lives along the border about selling feeders that go to a farm/ranch/feedlot that is just over the border in another "country" yet they are practically your next door neighbor with most not considering that they are "different" because of the citizenship status. I was in favor of the labeling that would have designated that it was from North American farmers.... however it was proposed. That would have satisfied the trade agreement wording and still given us a "COOL" type label.
We should be able to put a " USA" label on stuff that is truly raised here.... like stuff that is locally born and raised. But as with the stupid regulations that will not allow milk to say it is 96.75 % FAT FREE as whole milk is.... like all other beverages and foods that are "this % fat free" and all that ..... we are not allowed to actually say that our locally processed meat is from USA .... yes we can put our own labels on it... but the USDA regs require some wording and refuse to allow other wording....
Put the truth on the label for milk and say it is 87% water.
 
Okay, when they put on the labels of soda that say how much high fructose corn syrup there is in there.....no added sugar or HFCS in milk. I never said that water wasn't a BIG part of the makeup of milk.... but there also shouldn't be a label on almond "milk" when it is not LEGALLY milk.....
 
kenny thomas said:
I buy something every week. Sometimes a few sometime several. If I didn't have an auction to get them from where would I get them. I'm a small operation so how would a feedlot with 100,000 head get calves each week.
Maybe a swap meet in a Tractor Supply parking lot?
 

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