Cattle Judging

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Son of Butch

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Hoard's Dairyman has annual dairy cow judging contest 5 breeds Ayrshire, Brown Swiss, Guernsey, Holstein and Jersey

4 cows in each class, all you have to do is rank each class ie Ayrshire 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th
Brown Swiss class 1-2-3-4 and so on for each of the 5 classes
5 classes of 4 cows per class = 20 cows total

This year 14,871 entries
How many got all 20 cows placed correctly according to the official judges?
0 as in zero out of 14,871 tries
Contest runs every year and I can't remember the last time anyone has ever agreed with the judges on all 20 cows

Moral of the story... the judges never get them right!
or
Perhaps the moral is... judging show cattle is a waste of time?
 

Aaron

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Problem with judging multiple breeds like that is that the average Joe Farmer has a type in his head and tries to make every breed fit that type. A high grading type Holstein is a p*sspoor Jersey and vice versa. Have to know your breed types well enough to know what is being sought out from each group.
 

greybeard

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someone will undoubtedly be along soon to explain that the ones with black hide are the only ones deserving to be ranked very high.
 
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Son of Butch

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Boot Jack Bulls":1lvfzh47 said:
The moral of the story is that judging anything is simply one person's opinion that day....
Not true, as Miss America has a panel of 10 judges and olympic figure skating and gymnastics are also judged by panels.
And carcass judging contests are measurable and quantifiable eliminating color bias and one person's opinion.

In Hoard's contest all cattle are judged from pictures only by both the judges and contestants.
Each breed are from the same herd and photographed by the same professional photographer from 3 views.
Entries are divided into 8 divisions including college dairy/livestock judging teams, 4H clubs, FFA teams ect.

After the contest is over each Cow's production records are published.
There has never been any correlation between the judge's official placing and the cows actual production.
Proving the moral of the story is cattle judging and the Showring is a waste of time. And counter productive to profitability.

The only worth while beef showring contest are the ones followed by a carcass contest with hides off and all are weighed, measured and graded. They are real learning experiences and the placings actually mean something.
 

M-5

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The equation is PEOPLE. They will never agree. I a saw judging contest last November that I would have thought 100% of judges could have seen the flaws on the sow that was being shown but unfortunately a little less than half 48% of the judges thought she deserved grand champion.
 
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Son of Butch

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Bigfoot":2v2ts2eb said:
You'd think drawing numbers from a hat would yield better results.
According to James Surowiecki's 2004 book The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the many are smarter than the few

The average of the entries should yield the most correct answer including that of any so called expert.
This observation traces back to statistician Sir Francis Galton creator of the concept of correlation and regression
toward the mean. In 1907 Galton found that the average of 800 entries in a Guess the Weight of the Ox contest
at a county fair was the most correct, being closer than any 1 individual in the group or any of the so called experts.

Research at 4 separate Universities back up Galton's line of thought.
 

Ol' 243

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greybeard":3uy8ah8q said:
someone will undoubtedly be along soon to explain that the ones with black hide are the only ones deserving to be ranked very high.

Well yea . . . . . . . :D :D :D
 

Boot Jack Bulls

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Suggesting that those other competitions are somehow more legitimate because of a judging panel is, to me, laughable. Several shows I am aware of use a panel. It doesn't change the fact that is is just the average of 3 (or however many you choose) opinions. Again, you can not discount the human element. You cannot also discount the usefulness of judging phenotype. It doesn't matter what that dairy cow can put out, if her teats and bag are so poorly put together you cannot get a milker on her.

I realize most on these boards see showing cattle as a waste of time. I would hazard to guess that those are also many of the people who see the millennial generation as a waste of air. I think that that if more people were involved in Ag, even in show stock, you would see less of the problems many complain about in today's youth. Yes, parts of the show world are seedy, but that is in every hobby. Ever see a parent behaving badly at a little league event? I have. I think that showing stock instills a strong work ethic, animal husbandry skills, and forms contacts that will serve a young person all their life. Instead of bashing one of the most effective ways to get youth into Ag, maybe do something that contributes to growth. The ring is one of the few places left that teaches youth that not every one wins and how to work toward a goal. It's really not what a lot of you seem to think it is.

BTW, I've shown everything from rabbits and guinea pigs to horses and cattle as a child. I have watched my sisters evolve as a result of them doing the same. My daughter will attend her first Jr National show in 2019. I'm not speaking as an outsider looking in, but someone who has been part of the show ring world for almost 30 years and has shown everywhere from county fair to the NWSS. My family considers going showing a vacation. We have never been to Disney World or 6 Flags, and I would have it no other way.
 

True Grit Farms

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callmefence":hdlkoqkb said:
Give everyone a bawling 300 pound calf with nuts. All expenses documented. Meet back at the local sale barn in 6 months and run em through. Simple math will pick a winner

There's no money in that.
 

DLD

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Boot Jack Bulls":leh2e0i5 said:
Suggesting that those other competitions are somehow more legitimate because of a judging panel is, to me, laughable. Several shows I am aware of use a panel. It doesn't change the fact that is is just the average of 3 (or however many you choose) opinions. Again, you can not discount the human element. You cannot also discount the usefulness of judging phenotype. It doesn't matter what that dairy cow can put out, if her teats and bag are so poorly put together you cannot get a milker on her.

I realize most on these boards see showing cattle as a waste of time. I would hazard to guess that those are also many of the people who see the millennial generation as a waste of air. I think that that if more people were involved in Ag, even in show stock, you would see less of the problems many complain about in today's youth. Yes, parts of the show world are seedy, but that is in every hobby. Ever see a parent behaving badly at a little league event? I have. I think that showing stock instills a strong work ethic, animal husbandry skills, and forms contacts that will serve a young person all their life. Instead of bashing one of the most effective ways to get youth into Ag, maybe do something that contributes to growth. The ring is one of the few places left that teaches youth that not every one wins and how to work toward a goal. It's really not what a lot of you seem to think it is.

BTW, I've shown everything from rabbits and guinea pigs to horses and cattle as a child. I have watched my sisters evolve as a result of them doing the same. My daughter will attend her first Jr National show in 2019. I'm not speaking as an outsider looking in, but someone who has been part of the show ring world for almost 30 years and has shown everywhere from county fair to the NWSS. My family considers going showing a vacation. We have never been to Disney World or 6 Flags, and I would have it no other way.

I agree 100%. Junior shows are more about raising kids than livestock, and I can introduce you to many good and successful people of all ages that credit showing livestock with helping them to get where they are today. And raising show cattle is probably even less popular on this board, but it's been good to us for a lot of years. We make good money with 4 way (and probably more) crosses, all sorts of colors and probably lots of other things most folks on this board love to hate.
 

sim.-ang.king

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They should've just went with 2-4-3-1 as their answer. That placing has the highest probability of being right, or scoring the highest.
 
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Son of Butch

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sim.-ang.king":yco4vpba said:
They should've just went with 2-4-3-1 as their answer.
That placing has the highest probability of being right, or scoring the highest.
Why did you pick 2-4-3-1 as highest probability?

No class was 2-4-3-1
4-2-3-1 might have been the best average choice with 1 class correct and another flipping middle pair 4-3-2-1
 

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I'd do a typical 4 cylinder firing order.. 1-3-4-2

I think RAISING cattle to win shows is a waste of effort and possibly counterproductive to economic.. however, the show and judging is valuable. Playing dressup with calves and making them so fluffy nearly any flaw can be combed over, that's useless unless your kids are trying to become beauticians... Color me stupid, but I'd sooner look at (and buy) slick animals and see a few flaws than buying a bunch of cotton candy with hooves.

Of those 14,000 entries, how many of them were from people with ag experience? Was it a bunch of people looking and saying "OOoh, that one has cute spots", or was it from people working with (dairy) cattle who know what to look for? If 14,000 experienced people entered and not ONE got it right, then the judging is screwy!

Do they have a "cheat sheet", where they look at particular traits, score that trait, and then sum the scores? If an exceptionally high value is placed to a trait of little productive importance (lets say "topline"), that could explain why an experienced person would go wrong by placing a high value on a trait like "udder structure" instead, which is something that really will be a production changer for that animal
 

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Nesikep":t7jtnfe5 said:
I'd do a typical 4 cylinder firing order.. 1-3-4-2

I think RAISING cattle to win shows is a waste of effort and possibly counterproductive to economic..

My granddaughter is showing one of our heifers this year. She usually wins her class, but in the championship she has been told twice that her calf "will make the best cow" but didn't win. If you aren't picking the heifer that will make the best cow, what exactly is the purpose of the whole exercise? Are we choosing swimsuit models or calf bearers and raisers?

She has fun and has learned the discipline that comes from having to feed, water and scoop manure regardless of what the weather is like or what else she has to do, which is a net positive, but the whole show thing is seriously screwed up.
 

Nesikep

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Boy, I should get into showing.. I have lots of calves that won't 'make the best cows'... yes, it is screwy, but I'm glad she's learning, and perhaps the biggest lesson is that the table is tilted.
 

RanchMan90

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callmefence":122lr114 said:
Give everyone a bawling 300 pound calf with nuts. All expenses documented. Meet back at the local sale barn in 6 months and run em through. Simple math will pick a winner
Good idea. That would be a lot more realistic.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Boot Jack Bulls":10evxr7f said:
Suggesting that those other competitions are somehow more legitimate because of a judging panel is, to me, laughable. Several shows I am aware of use a panel. It doesn't change the fact that is is just the average of 3 (or however many you choose) opinions. Again, you can not discount the human element. You cannot also discount the usefulness of judging phenotype. It doesn't matter what that dairy cow can put out, if her teats and bag are so poorly put together you cannot get a milker on her.

I realize most on these boards see showing cattle as a waste of time. I would hazard to guess that those are also many of the people who see the millennial generation as a waste of air. I think that that if more people were involved in Ag, even in show stock, you would see less of the problems many complain about in today's youth. Yes, parts of the show world are seedy, but that is in every hobby. Ever see a parent behaving badly at a little league event? I have. I think that showing stock instills a strong work ethic, animal husbandry skills, and forms contacts that will serve a young person all their life. Instead of bashing one of the most effective ways to get youth into Ag, maybe do something that contributes to growth. The ring is one of the few places left that teaches youth that not every one wins and how to work toward a goal. It's really not what a lot of you seem to think it is.

BTW, I've shown everything from rabbits and guinea pigs to horses and cattle as a child. I have watched my sisters evolve as a result of them doing the same. My daughter will attend her first Jr National show in 2019. I'm not speaking as an outsider looking in, but someone who has been part of the show ring world for almost 30 years and has shown everywhere from county fair to the NWSS. My family considers going showing a vacation. We have never been to Disney World or 6 Flags, and I would have it no other way.

Excellent!!! I agree 100%. We don't have a kid problem, we have a parent problem. Too many parents don't encourage their kids to take on projects of any kind that build responsibility and self worth.
I am involved in showing. But. my daughter showed from the age of 7 on up in 4-H and my two grandsons started at age 4 & 6. I never showed until my daughter was gone from home. It is a great tool to advertise what you are raising.
 

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