Cattle For Profit?

[farmwriter]

I'm probably not much older than you are, and I would strongly encourage you (as others already have) to find a cattle operation that will hire you.
Many of the questions that you are asking are beside the point if you don't enjoy the work. There are any number of ways to make significantly more money with significantly less blood, sweat, and tears.
That being said, land is very expensive to outrageously expensive in the vast majority of locations. (They're not making it anymore.)
Then there's property taxes which is another load of money that varies greatly from location to location. And I have no idea to what extent the same holds true in Canada.
If you're young and single and no one is depending on you, go have yourself a cattle adventure. Decide if it's for you. If not, you'll have great stories to tell at your next job. If you fall in love with it, you'll have a wealth of experience to get you started. There are very few yes or no questions involved in a business that depends on animals, weather, location, etc. I wish you all the best, cow business or no! :tiphat:

 

[mossy_oak23]

I appreciate all the advise everyone has given to me on getting started in this. If someone could please answer the following: aside from a calf/cow operation what other beef operations are there if any? Is the most common practice raising the calfs until weaning and then sending them off? From there do they go? to a feedyard? If they do are you payed by the feed yard and transfer the ownership or do you simply pay for the services of finishing your cattle?

 

[dun]

I appreciate all the advise everyone has given to me on getting started in this. If someone could please answer the following: aside from a calf/cow operation what other beef operations are there if any? Is the most common practice raising the calfs until weaning and then sending them off? From there do they go? to a feedyard? If they do are you payed by the feed yard and transfer the ownership or do you simply pay for the services of finishing your cattle?

Backgrounder, stocker, feeder, slaughter.
When weaned calves may go to a backgrounder or a feeder. You may or may not retain ownership. Slaughter is pretty self explanatory, you may retain ownership through that process too.

 

[hillsdown]

I have to say dairy is the best industry in Canada for bovines as far as profitability, but there are only 3 ways to get into it.

Have a boat load of money.
Be born into it.
Marry into it.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Like what was said, maybe now would be a good time to get in at a young age with cattle prices right now, but the land prices will kill you; unless you want to move into the boonies with unproductive land.

 

[MO_cows]

I'm probably not much older than you are, and I would strongly encourage you (as others already have) to find a cattle operation that will hire you.
Many of the questions that you are asking are beside the point if you don't enjoy the work. There are any number of ways to make significantly more money with significantly less blood, sweat, and tears.
That being said, land is very expensive to outrageously expensive in the vast majority of locations. (They're not making it anymore.)
Then there's property taxes which is another load of money that varies greatly from location to location. And I have no idea to what extent the same holds true in Canada.
If you're young and single and no one is depending on you, go have yourself a cattle adventure. Decide if it's for you. If not, you'll have great stories to tell at your next job. If you fall in love with it, you'll have a wealth of experience to get you started. There are very few yes or no questions involved in a business that depends on animals, weather, location, etc. I wish you all the best, cow business or no! :tiphat:

Good advice!!

 

[mossy_oak23]

I have another question for you guys. I figured i would just keep adding to this thread rather than flooding the forum with my questions that probably sound dumb.

Are any cattle really strictly grass fed? It seems most diets consist of the cattle grazing with some grains offered? What is most common?

Secondly i was reading up on cow/calf operations and it was saying that any cows that don't breed when the bull is put out are culled out of the herd because cows that aren't breeding aren't making money there simply costing money. Why wouldn't you just use AI to all your cows that are in heat to insure that they are bred?

 

[dun]

I have another question for you guys. I figured i would just keep adding to this thread rather than flooding the forum with my questions that probably sound dumb.

Are any cattle really strictly grass fed? It seems most diets consist of the cattle grazing with some grains offered? What is most common?

Secondly i was reading up on cow/calf operations and it was saying that any cows that don't breed when the bull is put out are culled out of the herd because cows that aren't breeding aren't making money there simply costing money. Why wouldn't you just use AI to all your cows that are in heat to insure that they are bred?

AI isn;t a silver bullet. Odds are if a bull can;t get her to settle, barring an infertile bull, she won;t settle to AI. A bull is the best heat detector there is, if the semen isn;t deposited at the right time there isn;t going to be a calf.

 

[JRGidaho`]

I have another question for you guys. I figured i would just keep adding to this thread rather than flooding the forum with my questions that probably sound dumb.

Are any cattle really strictly grass fed? It seems most diets consist of the cattle grazing with some grains offered? What is most common?

There are an increeasing number of cattle that are completely grass fed and receive no grain in their lifetime. I can remember one time since 1988 that we fed grain to any of our beef cows. That was when we were really short on winter pasture one year and they hay we bought was lousy. We fed about 5 lb corn gluten/day. We have finished cattle entirely on pasture with over 50% grading choice or better. We don't finish cattle anymore, other than for our own freezer, but we work with a lot of outfits that do.

There are some outfits marketing what the call grass fed but it actually receives some grain.

 

[mossy_oak23]

if you were raising strictly grass fed beef where would you send your calves after they have been weaned?

 

[grubbie]

I have another question for you guys. I figured i would just keep adding to this thread rather than flooding the forum with my questions that probably sound dumb.

Are any cattle really strictly grass fed? It seems most diets consist of the cattle grazing with some grains offered? What is most common?

Secondly i was reading up on cow/calf operations and it was saying that any cows that don't breed when the bull is put out are culled out of the herd because cows that aren't breeding aren't making money there simply costing money. Why wouldn't you just use AI to all your cows that are in heat to insure that they are bred?

Our herd is grass fed. We feed no grain. AI isn't going to settle all of your cows. When I learned to AI, the tech that was training me told me that a 80% conception rate was good for an experienced tech. I've never gotten above 70%, neither has a friend of mine. Again,.....do the math. Make a list of everything you will need, and how much it costs. Compare that to the money you will make by selling your calves, or whatever process you will be using to make your money. You will see that there is not much room for profit if you actually add up EVERYTHING.
Land
feed (even grass fed needs hay in winter up north),
equipment (for haying and feeding at the very least),
minerals,
vet supplies,
corrals,
fences,
oh yeah, and my biggest cost, FUEL....and im sure I am missing a few things here.
**Make an HONEST business plan before you go any farther**. Not trying to be mean or put you off of your dream here. Actually just trying to bring up some important points to consider as you make your decision.

 

[grubbie]

if you were raising strictly grass fed beef where would you send your calves after they have been weaned?

We take them to an auction.

 

[mossy_oak23]

I have another question for you guys. I figured i would just keep adding to this thread rather than flooding the forum with my questions that probably sound dumb.

Are any cattle really strictly grass fed? It seems most diets consist of the cattle grazing with some grains offered? What is most common?

Secondly i was reading up on cow/calf operations and it was saying that any cows that don't breed when the bull is put out are culled out of the herd because cows that aren't breeding aren't making money there simply costing money. Why wouldn't you just use AI to all your cows that are in heat to insure that they are bred?

Our herd is grass fed. We feed no grain. AI isn't going to settle all of your cows. When I learned to AI, the tech that was training me told me that a 80% conception rate was good for an experienced tech. I've never gotten above 70%, neither has a friend of mine. Again,.....do the math. Make a list of everything you will need, and how much it costs. Compare that to the money you will make by selling your calves, or whatever process you will be using to make your money. You will see that there is not much room for profit if you actually add up EVERYTHING.
Land
feed (even grass fed needs hay in winter up north),
equipment (for haying and feeding at the very least),
minerals,
vet supplies,
corrals,
fences,
oh yeah, and my biggest cost, FUEL....and im sure I am missing a few things here.
**Make an HONEST business plan before you go any farther**. Not trying to be mean or put you off of your dream here. Actually just trying to bring up some important points to consider as you make your decision.

.

 

[JRGidaho`]

if you were raising strictly grass fed beef where would you send your calves after they have been weaned?

If you take 100% pasture-finished cattle to an endpoint in the High-Select to Low Choice or better range, you need to market them in that niche. You can sell these cattle grade and yield on the rail and they will bring the same prices as feedlot finished cattle. There is no price premium there. All you have done is saved some costs (assuming you are doing it effectively).

The real value is selling the product as food. This can either be done thru direct marketing or sold to a wholsaler like Tall Grass Beef or Thousand Hills, depending on where you are located.

There is a lot of work to do in the direct market business and you would likely need several years of finishing experience before you were prodcuing a premium quality product that would garner top dollar in the direct market.

The advice you were given by other folks in previous posts to go to work for someone else is very practical and appropriate. Find out first if you even like doing the work and being around livestock on a daily basis. You're a long ways from where you need to be.

 

[Sean M]

Do you need a large number of cattle or year round supply to direct market like that JR?

 

[JRGidaho`]

Do you need a large number of cattle or year round supply to direct market like that JR?

Lime many things in cattle business, there are many ways to do it and accomplish your goals. I don't think there is any one lcoation in the US where you can produce a consistent qualtiy pasture-finished product year around. The best locations may have a 8-10 month finishing window. So you do the best you can.

If marketing to restaurants, having a fresh supply is year around.
If marketing to individuals, you can usually harvest all the cattle in a fairly narrow window of time and get by with frozen product.

The way I approach the cattle business is 1) decide what you want your income to be, 2) determine a realistic net return per head, 3) your needed income / net return per head then determines how many cattle you need to run.

Some of the better pasture-finishers net over $500 per head which means you only need 100 head to make a living. If the net per head is only $100 then you need 500 head.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Bez+]

theres a few things that deem an operation profitable.1 are you raising cows as a hobby/prp tax breaks.2 do you have a fulltime off farm job.3 do you want to raise cattle fulltime.4 do you know what you have in each calf from birth to weaning.5 are you selling your calves for more than what it cost to maintain the cow.6 all of the above work hand in hand.along with are you raising reg or comm cows.7 if reg do you sell show heifers an steers.along with breeding age bulls.

answers to your questions:

1. Not a hobby
2. I am in school and looking to make this my fulltime job
3. Yes
4. ? huh :?
5. hopefully
6. What is the difference between commericial and registered cattle?
7. Refer to answer 6.

Thanks for all the help anyone can offer!!!

All right kiddo - I am old enough to be your Grand Dad if you are in school so here is some rock hard advice - you can take it to the bank.

You want to do this full time? On your own place? Does not matter.

Then forget about it until you have an education and a full time job that will pay for your entry - unless you are independantly wealthy - stand to inherit - plan to marry into it or - you plan to get it from raising dope.

You keep 100 cows on your place and you make 100 bucks profit off each of them you just made 10,000 bucks - the carrying cost of your operation is higher than that. So you need a JOB - yeah - JOB that pays you in the six figure mark - and then you will still be in a tough spot.

By the way - check out all the Canadian Cattle organizations - you will see there is no one making that profit if they start out - they are in a LOSS position.

So once again you need the good, solid, HIGH PAYING job to subsidize your farm. And if you are smart you marry a nurse or teacher and she will help you when you are going broke.

That means you need an EDUCATION - which means you will stay in school until you have at least a Masters degree if you are really smart.

And do not think a farmer is a dumb guy and that it is easy - planning and forecasting budgets, fighting the tax man, improving genetics, calculating fertilizer inputs and a tonne of other things means you better be darned good at ALL sciences and math.

You need to be a financial wizard, a mechanical genius and be prepared to work around the clock while you also work OFF farm to pay for everything.

Why? Because your answer to question number six tells me you do know enough about cows.

So - get your education - get your job and dabble in cows until you know enough to maybe - just maybe - keep a couple on the back lot for a few years.

Harsh words? Nope - reality.

Lots of folks will be glad to help you once you get started but for heavens sakes - stop dreaming and do something about your future that can actually allow you to perhaps get into the game.

You need money - cows will not provide that - but a dammed good paying job will.

I wish you all the best - but do not waste all that time dreaming (do some though)- spend it studying - that way when you are old, fat and grey haired like me - you actually will not only have the pot to pizz in - you will have any window in your PAID for mansion to throw it out of.

No matter what you hear from the folks south of the border on input costs vs profit - they have a different tax structure, a different market structure and one additional thing that makes it a bit easier - population.

Your input costs are higher than south of the border, your taxes are higher - and your return on sold animals is lower

For most of the folks down south - other than those on the border - you have a tougher and longer winter - meaning more feed and input costs there as well.

They cannot feed their population and fill their export markets with domestic production - so there is always a demand for beef down there.

Canada has an EXCESS of animals - meaning there is less profit as you sell into an already flooded market - unless of course you are in a niche market - but you do NOT get there in a hurry - it took them years to develop.

Get educated and then go for it - it is a tough row to hoe and you need a solid base to make it happen.

Without it you WILL go down.

Regards

Bez+

 

[grubbie]

No matter what you hear from the folks south of the border on input costs vs profit - they have a different tax structure, a different market structure and one additional thing that makes it a bit easier - population.

Mossy, I am one of those "south of the border" folks that argued, in an earlier thread, that there can indeed be profit in raising cattle. However, make no mistake about it, there is not enough profit to live on by any means. As I said before, if you have to buy or lease land, there WILL BE NO PROFIT. I suggest you read Bez's post very carefully,........then when you are finished and every word has soaked in, read it again. Later on down the road, look into it as a hobby and enjoy it. But if you like to eat, you better heed Bez's words. GREAT POST Bez.

 

[Sean M]

Do you need a large number of cattle or year round supply to direct market like that JR?

Lime many things in cattle business, there are many ways to do it and accomplish your goals. I don't think there is any one lcoation in the US where you can produce a consistent qualtiy pasture-finished product year around. The best locations may have a 8-10 month finishing window. So you do the best you can.

If marketing to restaurants, having a fresh supply is year around.
If marketing to individuals, you can usually harvest all the cattle in a fairly narrow window of time and get by with frozen product.

The way I approach the cattle business is 1) decide what you want your income to be, 2) determine a realistic net return per head, 3) your needed income / net return per head then determines how many cattle you need to run.

Some of the better pasture-finishers net over $500 per head which means you only need 100 head to make a living. If the net per head is only $100 then you need 500 head.

Does this make sense to you?

Yeah that makes sense. I'm just thinking about things at the moment, I don't think I'd be trying to direct market for at least a few years.

 

[Alberta farmer]

mossy: I've sure got to agree with Bez on this one. Get an education. No matter where you go in life you will always have that degree?
When my son got out of high school all he wanted to do was come back to the farm but I insisted he go to university and get an education. He got a degree in commerce, tried working in an office for awhile(hated it) and came back home. Now I paid the whole shot and it never really benifited him a lot down on the farm, but it was good for him to mature and see the other side...I never regretted what it cost me! The trick here is he still has options if he ever gets sick of the farm or the business we run.
Also in this day and age you can learn a lot of stuff at a college or university that will be useful if you do decide to pursue a carreer in agriculture....maybe a lot easier than learning at the old school of hard knocks!
Right now any agriculture venture looks pretty bleak, but will it stay that way for ever? There is a lot of money in food, people have to eat, who knows what the future holds?
My advice to you is get an education, work for someone else on the side when you have time or run a few animals in your spare time, but at the end of the day do what you want to do! When you are an old man you might look back on it as the smartest thing you ever did or maybe the dumbest...but at least you will have given it a shot and have had the experience. Coulda, woulda, shouda are the regrets of not having tried!

 

[redcowsrule33]

I agree with Bez wholeheartedly. My cows right now are my expensive hobby. If my dad didn't farm for a living and help us out with the labor and hay I would be destitute with my herd at this point. I would love to do nothing but raise cows but I have neither the money or the land base for it. Maybe in the future it will be different but there aren't too many rich farmers out there that also don't owe the banker a fair bit. Get an education in life and cows. If you can't answer bigbull338's questions 4-7 knowledgably, you have a lot of homework to do and have no business raising cattle for a living yet. It's too expensive to learn as you go.