cattle conformation

[KNERSIE]

Thanks Knersie. I thought that but was not sure so I did not post it.
I do have a question about conformation for you and other experts on here, or just opinions by others. There always is someone stating about cows or bulls being pinched at the girth. I understand the basic concept but looking at some of the animals I just don't see it. Some may look pinched only because they have more spring of rib? Some may looked pinched because they carry more fat in the forward chest or brisket area? So could someone please explain something more about this?

I'm with you on this, a lot of what is a full heart girth is just fat. I see lots of comments on pinched heart girth where I don't think the animal in question is lacking that much there. Any normal animal will be slightly wider at the shoulders than he is just behind the shoulders (heart girth). He will then get wider at the 3rd rib again, that is just normal conformation.

When the alarm lights start flashing for me is when there is a break just behind the shoulder and his front legs are standing close together. I think a lack of depth and capacity is a much more frequently encountered problem than an otherwise good animal with just a pinched heartgirth.

 

[novatech]

Thanks. I feel a lot less ignorant about this.
Your comment about breaking back behind the shoulders is a lot more definitive than just pinched. It is also something very hard to see from just photos.

 

[dun]

Besides ambulatory longevity, I was taught that the dippy backed cows tend to have more tipped pelvis and more repro problems.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Thanks Knersie. I thought that but was not sure so I did not post it.
I do have a question about conformation for you and other experts on here, or just opinions by others. There always is someone stating about cows or bulls being pinched at the girth. I understand the basic concept but looking at some of the animals I just don't see it. Some may look pinched only because they have more spring of rib? Some may looked pinched because they carry more fat in the forward chest or brisket area? So could someone please explain something more about this?

I'm with you on this, a lot of what is a full heart girth is just fat. I see lots of comments on pinched heart girth where I don't think the animal in question is lacking that much there. Any normal animal will be slightly wider at the shoulders than he is just behind the shoulders (heart girth). He will then get wider at the 3rd rib again, that is just normal conformation.

When the alarm lights start flashing for me is when there is a break just behind the shoulder and his front legs are standing close together. I think a lack of depth and capacity is a much more frequently encountered problem than an otherwise good animal with just a pinched heartgirth.

So does that mean that the two steers that I did post on where not at all pinched in the heart-girth? I know they're just steers, nothing important to the cattle-breeding world, but I'm just wondering. :?

 

[Aaron]

Thanks Knersie. I thought that but was not sure so I did not post it.
I do have a question about conformation for you and other experts on here, or just opinions by others. There always is someone stating about cows or bulls being pinched at the girth. I understand the basic concept but looking at some of the animals I just don't see it. Some may look pinched only because they have more spring of rib? Some may looked pinched because they carry more fat in the forward chest or brisket area? So could someone please explain something more about this?

I'm with you on this, a lot of what is a full heart girth is just fat. I see lots of comments on pinched heart girth where I don't think the animal in question is lacking that much there. Any normal animal will be slightly wider at the shoulders than he is just behind the shoulders (heart girth). He will then get wider at the 3rd rib again, that is just normal conformation.

When the alarm lights start flashing for me is when there is a break just behind the shoulder and his front legs are standing close together. I think a lack of depth and capacity is a much more frequently encountered problem than an otherwise good animal with just a pinched heartgirth.

I agree with what both novatech and knersie said as well. heart girth seems to get mentioned alot on the boards and I don't think it's as big a deal as some make it to be.

One thing I take very seriously in our operation is a straight topline. As I heard from an old rancher once, "Marry a woman with a weak back, get her pregnant and in her last couple of trimesters, ask her to walk a mile to get a drink of water and walk that mile back to eat. Then wait and see how long it takes her to fall apart....it won't be long." And that is why you need straight-topped cattle.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I just want to pop this topic back up again because it just dawned on me (man do I feel dumb): dun you are right about the bad toplines especially with that 1st bull I posted he does have a bad one, no matter which way he's standing. I thought it was just because his head was high and it looked like he was standing on uneven ground, but i guess sometimes even then it (bad conformation) still shows up. That second angus bull (not the steer but the post with the simmi) has a even worse topline, I see that now. Yes it dawned on me when I seen Coyote's shorthorn bull... :dunce: :dunce:

Taz I hope I didn't cause any confusion...I'm still learning about what to look for in proper conformation myself, and I should learn to keep my mouth shut and just read what other more experienced folks are posting. :idea:

Okay I'll shut up now.

 

[novatech]

Taz I hope I didn't cause any confusion...I'm still learning about what to look for in proper conformation myself, and I should learn to keep my mouth shut and just read what other more experienced folks are posting. :idea:

Okay I'll shut up now.

If you kept your mouth shut, me and a lot of others would not have learned a thing.
I think when you quit learning it's because your dead, one way or the other.

 

[Taz]

IluvABbeef no need to apoligise its great to read all the comments and learn from them!! funny how you dont notice things i read all the comments on here and went home looked at the cows we have (lol all 3 of them) trying to pick faults some were so obvious i wondered how i missed them before you guys mentined them!

another question i cant find the pic now but someone put one up of a black angus? in a paddock and it had a real dip on its back just before the hip is this a lack of weight thing or an actuall conformation fault?

 

[IluvABbeef]

IluvABbeef no need to apoligise its great to read all the comments and learn from them!! funny how you dont notice things i read all the comments on here and went home looked at the cows we have (lol all 3 of them) trying to pick faults some were so obvious i wondered how i missed them before you guys mentined them!

That's very true, I did the same thing with the feeder steers we get.

another question i cant find the pic now but someone put one up of a black angus? in a paddock and it had a real dip on its back just before the hip is this a lack of weight thing or an actuall conformation fault?

Aahh yes that black angus cow (she's actually a range cow on the Kinsella Ranch by Viking, Alberta):
View attachment 1
I wouldn't call it a dip, its more of a hump...she's thin too because she's a range cow raising a 4 month old soggy calf (cant see it in this pic). I honestly can't tell you if it is with a lack of weight, although I doubt it because the conformation faults that we should most commonly look for is in the bone structure. Amount of weight has a thing contributing to conformation too, as you can see in the bulls being posted lately on the Breeds board. And BTW, she's not exactly in a "paddock", she's walking beside a fenceline of a 100+ acre pasture on a ranch partly owned by the U of Alberta.

I know your going to ask what a soggy calf is so here's what a "soggy" calf means:

In words, it means a calf that has gained sufficient weight to look like this when weaned from its momma (I get that right, dun?)

 

[Taz]

thanks karin thats the pic!
when you guys say a range cow what do you mean? sorry for all the questions!!!
lol over here thats what we call a paddock!

 

[IluvABbeef]

thanks karin thats the pic!
so would the hump go away if she was fatter? when you guys say a range cow what do you mean? sorry for all the questions!!!

Don't worry, we folks encourage questions, that's what this Beginner's board is for.

As for the hump: It might, it might not, but I'm betting it will a little bit, it'll still be there, but probably not as pronounced as in this photo. If she's putting fat on on her spine I'm thinking it will, but I'll see what the other folks have to say.

Range cow: Technically, I think it means a cow that a) has little human contact and is out in the "wild" for most of her life, b) a cow that is on range out to fend for herself and her calf. It's a broad term really, there's different definitions for different people.

 

[Taz]

the diffrent terms are intersting you just described a typical property here the cows are fed if need by but other then that left alone unless they need to be yarded for drenching or vetting most they see is a vechile driving around checking them thats it.

 

[IluvABbeef]

THat's exactly what the management is at the Kinsella Ranch: cows are fed hay from ~ November to ~ April, and left out on pasture for the rest of the year, seeing the handling facilities only once or twice a year, and the calving pasture once a year, and only seeing the hired cowhands when they need to be moved. That's not the only herd on there, btw, there's another commercial herd with a real mix of breeds: from Char to Brown Swiss.

 

[KNERSIE]

In the case of that specific cow its a combination of a few things, structurally she isn't sound, you can see that by the dip in the loin caused by the weight of the rumen and also by pregnancies.

She is in sorry condition not because she's a range cow raising a soggy calf, but rather because she isn't the right kind of cow for range conditions where cattle are usually expected to eat bigger quantities of lower quality natural forage. The bulge in her topline is caused by the overfilled rumen putting pressure under the spine.

For conditions like that you need a deep cow with lots of capacity that can eat enough in good times to put on a layer of fat to use as an energy reserve for leaner times. In harder times when the grass is dry she needs to be able to consume large amounts of slow digesting dry grass to maintain herself.

The cow in question is shallow and clearly lacks that needed capacity.

 

[mnmtranching]

thanks karin thats the pic!
when you guys say a range cow what do you mean? sorry for all the questions!!!
lol over here thats what we call a paddock!

There are still a lot of "range cows". Cows that can cover a lot of ground and go for a mile or more to get water. Now days "range cattle" are mostly good quality cattle. Have changed tremendously in the last few decades. Bulls bred and selected for their environment not show ring bulls. Heifers raised on the range. A range cow is one that is supplemented with feed only when needed.

 

[IluvABbeef]

In the case of that specific cow its a combination of a few things, structurally she isn't sound, you can see that by the dip in the loin caused by the weight of the rumen and also by pregnancies.

She is in sorry condition not because she's a range cow raising a soggy calf, but rather because she isn't the right kind of cow for range conditions where cattle are usually expected to eat bigger quantities of lower quality natural forage. The bulge in her topline is caused by the overfilled rumen putting pressure under the spine.

For conditions like that you need a deep cow with lots of capacity that can eat enough in good times to put on a layer of fat to use as an energy reserve for leaner times. In harder times when the grass is dry she needs to be able to consume large amounts of slow digesting dry grass to maintain herself.

The cow in question is shallow and clearly lacks that needed capacity.

Then I wouldn't be surprised if she was on the cull list in the first place. And, you bet, she's a definite good example of what NOT to have when owning/raising range cows.

Thanks for that Knersie.

 

[Central Fl Cracker]

Okay I am finally getting it. Big butt,straight top & bottom line, big shoulders,
good heart girth, masculine appearance etc. What if the bull is young, a lot of these area's will not be fully developed I guess.

 

[KNERSIE]

Okay I am finally getting it. Big butt,straight top & bottom line, big shoulders,
good heart girth, masculine appearance etc. What if the bull is young, a lot of these area's will not be fully developed I guess.

Although some areas develope later than others a bull should be masculine looking at weaning or he will never really be masculine looking. Correct shoulders rather than just big shoulders is what you want. You also forgot to mention capacity and balance.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Okay I am finally getting it. Big butt,straight top & bottom line, big shoulders,
good heart girth, masculine appearance etc. What if the bull is young, a lot of these area's will not be fully developed I guess.

Something like that. Don't forget about length and capacity, good feet and legs (for both cows and bulls), rounded loin area (from looking at one of Knersie's bulls that's a must for adequate [or I should say above-adequate] fertility), good testicle strucuture (and good udder structure), the list goes on.

It's obvious when the bull is young, he's still growing, still gotta get more testosterone circulating to get looking more and more like a bull. And like Knersie said (man you beat me to the punch!) he should be looking like a bull before you decide to get him to service some cows.

Here's a couple good sites to keep on hand when looking for structural norms/abnorms:
http://www.bovineengineering.com/linera_male.html
http://www.bovineengineering.com/linear_female.html

Edit: I was going to mention something about the shoulders too but again what Knersie said about that. From what I've learned big shoulders = dystocia, unless you got a cow with enough pelvic area to spit out a calf (with no assistance) with big shoulders.