Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

[OakCreekRanch]

I do have some concerns about the genetic defects spreading around via these carrier animals and the semen sales. It's not unheard of the retired show cows/heifers are sold as a commercial cow which is getting common in our area and I've seen club calf bulls being advertised in some beef sire catalogs, claiming that they are best bulls to producing some commercial replacements. I noticed that some catalogs do not show these club calf bulls' EPD and their defects. That goes for other breeds too. Anyone can get their hands on the semen from these affected bulls, not just for showring folks and used them on their commercial cows. That's right club calf semen are being sold to the commercial operators. I know few people did it and they are not even showing their cattle. IMO that is just irresponsible to breeding more affected animals (club calf or not) then have more animals to be tested for these detects. I read few articles that there are more affected club calf bulls being used than the clean bulls but it's just what I read from these articles and I really hope that club calf industry need to promote more clean bulls. I just wish that club calf industry (and other breed associations) needs to be ethnical and put a stop on breeding more affected animals but that's my opinion. Hope I didn't pi$$ed anyone for entitled my opinion here.

 

[VCC]

Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD's, hard to get EPD's off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.

 

[Beef Man]

I've got a question. One of my grandsons has some pretty decent yearling heifers and wants to AI a few to club calf and try to market them as show steers.He is 13 years old and this is his own idea. I was quite impressed with his plan and thought it whould give him a nice boost on his way to maybe learn something different and on his own. But I surely would like to know more about these genetic problems and could he use the heifers anyway in a future breeding program??What is TH orTpha?? I as a 14 year old learned all about dwarfism in a old hard knocks school and it wiped me out of the breeding cattle business in 1 year. Tough lesson learned and remember it well. So thought I could ask a question and get a headstart on some problems before a wreck happen's. Thank You--

 

[DLD]

Oak Creek, I'm not trying to be difficult here - I truly want to know... Can you give us a link or tell us where to find that information promoting clubbie bulls for producing commercial replacements? I'd love to know which particular bulls and why. I'm as much about the showring as anybody, but I'll be the first to say that generally speaking the genetics behind a winning show steer and a good commercial female are miles apart. Now I realize that club calf semen is being sold to anybody that wants it, but I have to believe that there are very few commercial producers that are savvy enough to use AI that aren't researching the genetics they're using. I also realize that when club calf producers can sell calves straight off the cow for five figures, that a whole lot of people want a piece of that action, and many of them aren't taking the time to make wise breeding decisions - I'm not pretending that's a good thing, but it's not an accident. It's that producers fault, period - not the fault of the bull he bred to or the guy that sold him the semen.

VCC, I think the PHA deal is fading away much faster than TH. There aren't many new PHA carrier bulls being marketed for semen sales. About the only old PHA carrier still popular is Irish Whiskey, but there are plenty of clean sons out there to use.

I agree, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I'm not knocking anybody for theirs. Just sharing mine too.

 

[DLD]

I've got a question. One of my grandsons has some pretty decent yearling heifers and wants to AI a few to club calf and try to market them as show steers.He is 13 years old and this is his own idea. I was quite impressed with his plan and thought it whould give him a nice boost on his way to maybe learn something different and on his own. But I surely would like to know more about these genetic problems and could he use the heifers anyway in a future breeding program??What is TH orTpha?? I as a 14 year old learned all about dwarfism in a old hard knocks school and it wiped me out of the breeding cattle business in 1 year. Tough lesson learned and remember it well. So thought I could ask a question and get a headstart on some problems before a wreck happen's. Thank You--

My fifty cent crash course. Maybe oversimplified, but it covers most of what you need to know.

TH results in malformation of the hind legs - can be slight or extreme. TH affected calves also often are born with hernias, and/or a hole in the top of their head. Affected calves are usually stillborn. It traces back to a particular line of imported Shorthorns. Before that, though it can't be directly traced to there, the only known recorded incidents of what seems to be the same thing occurred in the Galloway breed. It's a simply inherited genetic defect - statistically, mating 2 carriers will result in 50% carriers, 25% clean and 25% affected offspring. Mating 1 carrier with 1 clean parent will result in 50% carrier and 50% clean offspring.

PHA is where the fetus' lungs don't develop properly. It results in the calf taking on fluid, and if they're carried full term, it can result in huge, deformed calves (always stillborn) that often have to come out in pieces or by C-section. It can result in a cow not surviving, and often the ones that do won't breed back. Inheritance is the same as with TH. It's origins are kind of fuzzy - it can be traced back to a few old Maine Anjou lines, but there seems to be a dead end in connecting them to each other and an original source.

TH is a deletion in the gene sequence that's involved in forming the hind leg, and seems to be associated with big bone, straight legs, and maybe lots of hair. Thus, it's been hard to get away from in the club calf deal.

TH and PHA carrier status is available on most AI sires - if you don't see it, ask. There are many good, clean bulls available.

I may sound like carrier's just don't matter to me, but really, that's not the case. I do have a few carrier females, bred back before we knew about these defects. They're too valuable to throw away, but I mate them clean. Always. I won't own a carrier bull. I do breed a few known clean cows to carrier bulls AI. All the bull calves get cut, most females get sent to a feedlot. If we want to keep one, we test her, and breed accordingly. We have not had an affected calf with either TH or PHA since we knew what they were and only 2 before that.

My advice for someone just starting out would be to keep it clean. Lot's of people are going to tell you you'll never raise a great one that way, but you can raise some good ones, and sleep better at night.

 

[OakCreekRanch]

Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD's, hard to get EPD's off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.

I do agree with almost everything you just said but it doesn't change the fact that too many people are selling the females to others after the showing season is over. Often the kids have to selling their animals before they goes to the college or trying a new project. Recently my bud just brought a black MainTainer heifer from a guy and my bud has some retired show cows in his commercial herd so I have some concerns about buying replacements from my bud.

I have to disagree with you on the carrier status posted on the beef sire catalogs because I do not see any carrier status on some bull catalogs, especially Genex Cooperative, Inc. I just got in the mail. And it's difficult to track down a specific bull to see if he is a carrier or not when do a search on Google but I'm no computer genius. :help:

If they wanted a show steer, why didn't they just selling sexed semen to the folks? I don't know if I want these detects in my herd, nor do I wants to have an extra chore by testing every heifers for the detects. But I agree with you that they will always using these dirty bulls because money speaks. Perhaps one day when the dirty club calf fad become a past thing or at least more awareness about these defects.

 

[VCC]

Well they only list 2 club calf bulls on the Genex site, one is a 98 model "Swoosh", and the other "Super Man" out of Strictly Business and Who Made Who, he should be clean by lineage, probably why they are not listed as carriers.

As long as you are not breeding to Club Calf, Show type Shorthorn, or retaining bulls out of the suspect cows, I cannot see how you are going to run into a problem. Without 2 carriers you will never have a calf with a defect. If you are breeding, Angus, Hereford, Charolais, Simmental, or eared bulls you are not at risk of TH or PHA.

I have a 5 year old cow that is out of a cow who was out of a carrier bull (PHA) I just make sure I breed her to PHA free bulls, steers are no big deal, and I still have the only heifer she has thrown, I am not worried about defects because I watch who I breed her to, and will do the same with the heifer. I have not had her tested; if I were to sell a heifer out of her or her daughter then I would have it tested prior to selling it.

 

[Till-Hill]

Oak Creek, once a clean bull comes out that produces consistent winners you will see them go away from the carriers, until then I doubt anyone will stop using them. Most clean bulls that do come out get bred to the carrier cows. So it will take time, but club calf breeders are in the business to produce steers that win, not steers that are clean. Even with the market heifer deal, to many people decide to keep them as cows once they get through showing them.

As far as EPD's, hard to get EPD's off of a 3 way cross, oh some might be registered Chi, but what is that 8%, for the most part they are shooting for steers, they do not get registered. There are several Sim bulls out there that to make good replacements they are clean, there are also some good Maines but you have to watch PHA. There have been some good clubby bred bulls who have produced great cows, Who made Who, a clean bull has done well.

Most bulls have the their carrier status posted, when using clubby genetics for replacements the information for defects is there as long as one does their homework.

Most clubby bred bulls are terminal, a few turn out to produce good replacements, for the most part poor milking, small pelvis, is what you are getting from the HeatWave cattle, not a very good recipe for replacements.

I do agree with almost everything you just said but it doesn't change the fact that too many people are selling the females to others after the showing season is over. Often the kids have to selling their animals before they goes to the college or trying a new project. Recently my bud just brought a black MainTainer heifer from a guy and my bud has some retired show cows in his commercial herd so I have some concerns about buying replacements from my bud.

I have to disagree with you on the carrier status posted on the beef sire catalogs because I do not see any carrier status on some bull catalogs, especially Genex Cooperative, Inc. I just got in the mail. And it's difficult to track down a specific bull to see if he is a carrier or not when do a search on Google but I'm no computer genius. :help:

If they wanted a show steer, why didn't they just selling sexed semen to the folks? I don't know if I want these detects in my herd, nor do I wants to have an extra chore by testing every heifers for the detects. But I agree with you that they will always using these dirty bulls because money speaks. Perhaps one day when the dirty club calf fad become a past thing or at least more awareness about these defects.

Look loser at club calf bulls in the back of the book, mine and my buddies both has TH and PHA status listed for them but on website go to added attractions to find the clubby bulls........

 

[OakCreekRanch]

I am not too worried about what you do with your animals. My biggest concern is spreading the defects around via carrier animals and the defects might ended up in someone's cattle herd unknowingly. Who knows we might will see these defects showing up in the other breeds or even in commercial herds someday. Because the club calf industry choose to not clean up their messes as long as they are making money off these carrier animals. There will be always irresponsible breeders and sellers to ruin the beef industry for the folks like us. I'm sure some of you are nice folks but this is really grinds my gears!

 

[OakCreekRanch]

So I'm the loser? Well I better stop posting in this thread as if I have offended some folks here for my concerns and entitling my opinions. Have a nice afternoon! :tiphat:

 

[Till-Hill]

I meant both books I have seen had status listed.

Who in the commercial world or beef cattle is using THC and PHC bulls? That would be risky to me. We have few THC and just one know PHC cow, mate them clean or test them.

DD just came out, something else will follow and something else behind that. It just takes management. Clean-up bulls are always clean here and on 20 head last year I used 1 THC bull. It's really not a huge deal.

Even if you explain these defects to most commercial guys they don't understand and don't care. But I would explain if I ever seen a potential carrier to a buyer.

 

[OakCreekRanch]

Interestingly, I guess my book must be misprinted or that I can't find the carrier status on the club calf bulls. I just wished that my fiancée didn't throw that book in the fire stove.

I don't know why the folks would using club calf bulls on their commercial cows. I didn't asked them as I don't want to offend them. Perhaps make a quick buck or do a little experimental breeding? Who knows.

Its great that you guys are keeping the carriers and I don't have any problems with it. Its just I don't want the detects leaving the farm. Who knows I might get a club calf steer or heifer for our kids someday if we're thinking about having children.

 

[Till-Hill]

There are alot of good cattle today that have known defects and alot more that will have something pop up in the future. Manage the defects and breed the kind of cows you want and mostly the ones that make you money.

Defect deal is a pain, Angus cows have spend couple hundred testing and more to do yet, clubby cattle around the same. But once a mature cow is tested clean and use clean bulls shouldn't have to worry untill something "new" comes out again! Keeping pedigree info and every animal is very important.

 

[VCC]

As for the loser part, I think he was trying to say look closer, and missed the c.
The club calf industry breeds cattle for shows, that is their goal, which is why they are called Club Calves. How many calves with defects have you heard about or seen from commercial outfits?
This discussion has been going on since they found the TH and PHA defects and identified the carriers, some thought that all carriers should have been sent to slaughter; other just started managing their herd accordingly, other just kept doing the same old thing.
If you do not want carriers on your place do not buy cattle that could be carriers, if you want to buy some of the cattle from your neighbor and are not sure of their status, see if he will either pay for the test or at least pay for half of the test, if their clean then you are fine, buy them, if their dirty, pass. There are some could club calf genetics out there that are clean, just need to be diligent in your choices.
The big problem is the hot bulls are carriers and it seems like the next hot bull coming out are sons who are also carriers as well.
I breed to non-carriers and stay away from the hotter bulls because I try a breed calves where I get a steer or heifer that is usable, if I were to breed for steers only I would sell the heifers as market heifers, not too much to worry about after they push the heifers on feed so hard, if they decided to keep her to breed most wont cycle anyway.
The cow I have that may be a carrier, came from a mating of an Angus cow to a Sim X bull that turned out to be a carrier, the cow was bred to him prior to the list of carriers coming out. She had a heifer calf for her first calf, that is the cow I still have, the original cow got stifled carrying her second calf and was put down.

For those who have them, if they manage them, are honest when they sell heifers, there should be no issues. For those who do not have them in their herd, I understand their desire to keep it out. It is easier to not have to manage a problem, so why invite it in.

When you are getting anywhere from $5000 to $25000 for steers out of certain bulls it is hard for people to stop using them.

 

[Till-Hill]

As for the loser part, I think he was trying to say look closer, and missed the c.
The club calf industry breeds cattle for shows, that is their goal, which is why they are called Club Calves. How many calves with defects have you heard about or seen from commercial outfits?
This discussion has been going on since they found the TH and PHA defects and identified the carriers, some thought that all carriers should have been sent to slaughter; other just started managing their herd accordingly, other just kept doing the same old thing.
If you do not want carriers on your place do not buy cattle that could be carriers, if you want to buy some of the cattle from your neighbor and are not sure of their status, see if he will either pay for the test or at least pay for half of the test, if their clean then you are fine, buy them, if their dirty, pass. There are some could club calf genetics out there that are clean, just need to be diligent in your choices.
The big problem is the hot bulls are carriers and it seems like the next hot bull coming out are sons who are also carriers as well.
I breed to non-carriers and stay away from the hotter bulls because I try a breed calves where I get a steer or heifer that is usable, if I were to breed for steers only I would sell the heifers as market heifers, not too much to worry about after they push the heifers on feed so hard, if they decided to keep her to breed most wont cycle anyway.
The cow I have that may be a carrier, came from a mating of an Angus cow to a Sim X bull that turned out to be a carrier, the cow was bred to him prior to the list of carriers coming out. She had a heifer calf for her first calf, that is the cow I still have, the original cow got stifled carrying her second calf and was put down.

For those who have them, if they manage them, are honest when they sell heifers, there should be no issues. For those who do not have them in their herd, I understand their desire to keep it out. It is easier to not have to manage a problem, so why invite it in.

When you are getting anywhere from $5000 to $25000 for steers out of certain bulls it is hard for people to stop using them.

Thanks VCC no I did not mean to say loser.