Can AI breed out libido? A story of two bulls.

[mac]

My Dad, the Colonel, bought bulls the way he bought some of his cows. He liked to try to draw to an inside straight and pick culls out of the slaughter auction. Of course, he went to the bull auctions, too, and one year he decided to loosen his purse strings and bought two fancy registered Black Angus bulls. The semen test was 11 out of 10 and they were exceedingly handsome. And priced accordingly.

There were a couple of our other bulls in the same pasture so it took a year or two to realize these fancy bulls were not breeding. They were bird watchers. The fancy bull breeder used artificial insemination.

The Colonel passed away two years ago and I find myself running a cattle ranch in East Texas. An accountant from Houston, I don't know anything about cattle but I have a theory that AI can breed out libido in bulls without the breeder realizing it. What say you?

 

[dun]

BULL!

 

[SSGenetics]

LOL! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?? :???: :help:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As you can see, we do not agree with this "theory".

 

[houstoncutter]

I will not completely dismiss the idea. To me libido means not only the ability to breed, but the Want to breed. I cant help but think that bulls that have lived a pampered lives over many generations, might have developed a lazy streak. In a commercial setting these bulls would have been identified, and dealt with. We all know of bloodlines in our respective breeds, that have had many generations of bulls and cows that have never seen a breeding pasture... Is it to much to think, that we have had some cattle out of those groups, that might not have as high of libido as others. Consider this, why does it seem that AI bulls seem to have such short life spans, with all of the pampering they receive.

Having purchased bulls from the same breeder for many years, I have seen certain bloodlines that are more aggressive breeders than others. You gotta have a lot of want to to breed during Texas summers, with the heat and humidity that I am in . I think you safely could say that some bloodlines might be acceptable breeders in Winnipeg in July but lay in the shade on the same day in S.E. Texas.

So I think you could make the argument, that libido, is a heritable trait . Thus having many generations of animals, that have not been exposed to natural selection, because of their birthright.

 

[Galloways1]

For the sake of aurgument / discussion, i will bite.

We can all agree that using AI is human influence in a natural act (reproduction).

Mac is asking if 2 bulls concieved via AI can have less libido, than bulls concieved naturally. Obviously their sire had viable sperm, as they are living proof. Would their sires have bred those same cows in a herd inviroment with competition from other bulls? We don't know, do we?

If any of you have seen multiple bulls, you know some breed a hell of alot more cows that others. The heavy use of AI bulls (in some breeds) has been responsible for many offspring (characteristics- BW, genetic defects, no milk) that would have never been concieved, let alone survived in NATURE.

So I won't jump on MAC for asking a legitimate question, and I will say, sure AI bulls could have less libido than non AI bulls. Just like calves out of an AI bull could weigh 150 lbs and have to be C-sectioned, where as a bull that does that in a natural setting would have 0 live offspring, without human intervention.

 

[SSGenetics]

I will not completely dismiss the idea. To me libido means not only the ability to breed, but the Want to breed. I cant help but think that bulls that have lived a pampered lives over many generations, might have developed a lazy streak. In a commercial setting these bulls would have been identified, and dealt with. We all know of bloodlines in our respective breeds, that have had many generations of bulls and cows that have never seen a breeding pasture... Is it to much to think, that we have had some cattle out of those groups, that might not have as high of libido as others. Consider this, why does it seem that AI bulls seem to have such short life spans, with all of the pampering they receive.

Having purchased bulls from the same breeder for many years, I have seen certain bloodlines that are more aggressive breeders than others. You gotta have a lot of want to to breed during Texas summers, with the heat and humidity that I am in . I think you safely could say that some bloodlines might be acceptable breeders in Winnipeg in July but lay in the shade on the same day in S.E. Texas.

So I think you could make the argument, that libido, is a heritable trait . Thus having many generations of animals, that have not been exposed to natural selection, because of their birthright.

It seems to me once an AI bull has been collected they are used extremely heavy for live cover. Getting passed from ranch to ranch because he's part of a syndicate. IMO they get worked more than the average bull.... :2cents: Maybe it's just my breed though?

Justin

 

[Galloways1]

Houstoncutter- you must type faster than I do.

 

[dun]

You see the same thing in people. 2 brothes with the same parents and environemnt, one is a horndog and the other is interested in otherthings.

 

[ohiosteve]

I thought about this so hard I gave myself a headache. I believe libido is an inheritable genetic trait, but often overlooked because breeders are choosing for other traits such as width, depth, legs etc. therefore it is not the method of insemination (artificial or natural) that would influence libido but what traits the breeder is selecting for. I may be way off but that's my way of thinking.

 

[ohiosteve]

I also wonder if breeding for docility leads to less libido.

 

[dun]

I also wonder if breeding for docility leads to less libido.

Not unless they breed them to the point of "Ferdinan" who should have been called "Ferdy"

 

[regolith]

Say two words "Jersey libido"
They're all AI sired, so are their dams. Some of them can't wait for the cows to come on heat... they serve on the run.

Interesting discussion. I'm not the only dairy with clean up bulls failing to clean up as expected - but libido isn't the cause. The unfortunate farmer in the opening post bought gay bulls - if I added up all the bulls I've met I'd be able to give a percentage of them in the population, because we had one once. He was an Angus. Not AI sired.

 

[cow pollinater]

I'd have to say that it's absolutely possible. Every breed out there is what they are via genetic selection wether it be from live bull coverage or AI.
That being said, it isn't likely with most breeds as most of them have some standard for fertility set in their method of proving cattle. Angus has scrotal circumferance as well as daughter fertility so it's unlikely that anyone would choose cattle that are poor enough in theses traits consistantly for a long enough period of time to hurt the fertility of the progeny to the point where they are non-breeders.

 

[3waycross]

Theory might hold some water if those bulls being used for AI were never given a chance to breed naturally. Possibly for several generations.

I sold a bull last fall that neither myself nor anyone else EVER saw breed a cow. However he only missed one in 3 years.

 

[greatgerts]

Could the other bulls have shown dominance to where the younger "fancy" bulls were knocked down and just let the older bulls work?

 

[Mid South Guy]

Could the other bulls have shown dominance to where the younger "fancy" bulls were knocked down and just let the older bulls work?

Not only possible but this is probably what happened. Bulls in multiple sire herds will estabish a pecking order for breeding, especially if you have bulls of different ages and/or from different sources. I have seen several studies on this done where thru DNA testing of calves it has been proven. Here's a link to one of those studies. http://beefrepro.unl.edu/proceedings/2011northwest/16_nw_multisirepastures_vaneenennaam.pdf

 

[greatgerts]

Could the other bulls have shown dominance to where the younger "fancy" bulls were knocked down and just let the older bulls work?

Not only possible but this is probably what happened. Bulls in multiple sire herds will estabish a pecking order for breeding, especially if you have bulls of different ages and/or from different sources. I have seen several studies on this done where thru DNA testing of calves it has been proven. Here's a link to one of those studies. http://beefrepro.unl.edu/proceedings/2011northwest/16_nw_multisirepastures_vaneenennaam.pdf

I knew the answer to my question, but wanted to bring it out for the OP, which has not replied to any of the comments.

 

[Mid South Guy]

Could the other bulls have shown dominance to where the younger "fancy" bulls were knocked down and just let the older bulls work?

Not only possible but this is probably what happened. Bulls in multiple sire herds will estabish a pecking order for breeding, especially if you have bulls of different ages and/or from different sources. I have seen several studies on this done where thru DNA testing of calves it has been proven. Here's a link to one of those studies. http://beefrepro.unl.edu/proceedings/2011northwest/16_nw_multisirepastures_vaneenennaam.pdf

I knew the answer to my question, but wanted to bring it out for the OP, which has not replied to any of the comments.

Didn't mean to imply you didn't know. Just the opposite, I infered you were posing the question for the OP to ask himself and consider. I was simply tring to re-enforce your comment for the OP, since to me it is the most obvious answer to his problem, and it hadn't been mentioned thru 2 pages of posts until you did.

 

[mac]

I was just waiting for the dust to settle. It does seem reasonable that breeding for docility could also cause a low libido. Libido is not as easily measured as scrotal circumference, semen count and other physical attributes. My contention remains that if libido is not tested in some way with successive generations, low libido could creep in. Why would it not? Studies have been done with other species due to concern about this very issue. Your replies have been... revealing. Thank you one and all.