Can’t win them all

[jschoolcraft86]

It's been a rough year for pulling calves here at the ranch and until now we have been lucky. I noticed a cow in labor, due 11/19, close to bed time and had her in the pens already. I checked at 11 PM and she was starting to have some contractions but didn't seem to be distressed so I set an alarm for 3 AM and did my best to sleep.

Unfortunately, when I got out there at 3 she was down on her side and there was a head out with no feet. The calf was already dead but i managed to push it back in and get the position right and was able to pull it and hopefully save mama. Like the topic says, I know I can't win them all but I'm beating myself up for waiting too long in between checks. Assuming the calf was alive when the process started, which I didn't see anything to indicate otherwise, I know I could have gotten it out. The "what if" game is pointless but it's still hard not to play it. This calf was a bucking bull embryo I had in for another guy and the live calf payment (half at birth, half at pickup) was something that would have made a difference. 700 bucks shouldn't be such a difference maker but it's been a tough year all the way around.

We have a new bottle baby I tried to graft onto the cow but she got laid out by the cow in distress and when I was picking up the poor thing to separate it again I took a hoof to the back of the head. To make matters worse I'm 2.5 weeks recovered from having new new discs put in my neck, the neck collar came off on Tuesday. I'm sure my surgeon would be pissed I was out there but there wasn't anyone else who was able to pull that calf and I was concerned with saving the cow. So far it seems like the only thing hurt are some muscles in my neck on one side so I'm thinking I dodged a bullet there. I'll feel better after I get my previously ordered x rays for my next follow up appointment and they hopefully confirm my new hardware stayed where it should be.

I'm not usually one for long winded post but it's 4:30 AM now and I'm sitting here pretty bummed out. If anyone has any input on their process for determining when to get involved or what kind of time interval they use when checking on situations like this I would love to hear it so I can apply it in the future.

 

[kenny thomas]

Sounds like your doing all you can. You can't physically stay with them 24 hours a day.
Hope the neck surgery went well and helps.

 

[TCRanch]

Dang, I'm sorry to hear that. I generally give an experienced cow an hour before I start getting concerned, 2 hours for heifers.

Hope you don't suffer any residual effects so soon after surgery but yes, you dodged a bullet from the blow to your head. Mr TC fell & fractured his femur shortly after a lumbar laminectomy, didn't even have his staples out. Amazingly, nothing from the surgery was damaged. Sending good luck!

 

[jschoolcraft86]

Dang, I'm sorry to hear that. I generally give an experienced cow an hour before I start getting concerned, 2 hours for heifers.

Hope you don't suffer any residual effects so soon after surgery but yes, you dodged a bullet from the blow to your head. Mr TC fell & fractured his femur shortly after a lumbar laminectomy, didn't even have his staples out. Amazingly, nothing from the surgery was damaged. Sending good luck!

Thanks for your feedback. If an hour or two has passed since the onset of contractions and you haven't seen signs of the calf coming would you go in and try and feel the positioning or what would your strategy be? I was concerned about intervening too soon when she might not have been ready. I am not sure what to feel for to know she is dilated enough. I spent a little time reading this morning and the general consensus was if you can get your hand through the cervix it is dilated enough, does that sound right to you?

I've had to pull a backwards calf, one with its head back over its shoulder, and some big ones that just needed a helping hand this year, but I was able to see at least one hoof early on in the process to kickstart my timer. This was a first for me.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

Sounds like your doing all you can. You can't physically stay with them 24 hours a day.
Hope the neck surgery went well and helps.

Thanks, I know you're right and feeling guilty about not being there at the exact right time every time isn't really reasonable. I guess sometimes even if you are there at the right time things can go sideways anyway.

Surgery has been a god send and I'm pretty convinced now everything is ok in there and my muscles are just a little tweaked. Certainly could have been much worse.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks for your feedback. If an hour or two has passed since the onset of contractions and you haven't seen signs of the calf coming would you go in and try and feel the positioning or what would your strategy be? I was concerned about intervening too soon when she might not have been ready. I am not sure what to feel for to know she is dilated enough. I spent a little time reading this morning and the general consensus was if you can get your hand through the cervix it is dilated enough, does that sound right to you?

I've had to pull a backwards calf, one with its head back over its shoulder, and some big ones that just needed a helping hand this year, but I was able to see at least one hoof early on in the process to kickstart my timer. This was a first for me.

"Generally" was the operative word. But I know my cattle - all were born & raised here. There are a few that take longer to calve after the start of parturition, and I give them significantly longer before I bring them in. First thing I check for is 2 front hooves and a head - in the correct position. If I can't get my arm in, they usually aren't ready BUT I once had to pull a malpositioned calf in a heifer and had to slowly (slowly - with a lot of lube!) "stretch" the cervix. She wasn't fully dilated, but it had been too long (and subsequently named the calf Twister).

I got lucky this year with a backwards presentation in a heifer. Went to the workshop to get the chains, came back a few minutes later and she had the calf on her own.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

"Generally" was the operative word. But I know my cattle - all were born & raised here. There are a few that take longer to calve after the start of parturition, and I give them significantly longer before I bring them in. First thing I check for is 2 front hooves and a head - in the correct position. If I can't get my arm in, they usually aren't ready BUT I once had to pull a malpositioned calf in a heifer and had to slowly (slowly - with a lot of lube!) "stretch" the cervix. She wasn't fully dilated, but it had been too long (and subsequently named the calf Twister).

I got lucky this year with a backwards presentation in a heifer. Went to the workshop to get the chains, came back a few minutes later and she had the calf on her own.

Gotcha, that is great information. Thank you again. Also, love the name Twister for that situation

 

[Silver]

Sorry about your loss.
TC has given you good info. You'll know the cervix is not fully dilated if you can feel what feels like a drawstring holding the birth canal partially (or fully) closed. Manipulating the cervix can cause it to dilate further. It's also a good idea to spend some time in the birth canal to open it up further.
Regarding the head first calf, it seems to be my experience that this presentation is more common when the calf has died prior to birth and is now just a wet noodle.

 

[Travlr]

Unfortunately, when I got out there at 3 she was down on her side and there was a head out with no feet. The calf was already dead but i managed to push it back in and get the position right and was able to pull it and hopefully save mama. Like the topic says, I know I can't win them all but I'm beating myself up for waiting too long in between checks. Assuming the calf was alive when the process started,

I'm not usually one for long winded post but it's 4:30 AM now and I'm sitting here pretty bummed out. If anyone has any input on their process for determining when to get involved or what kind of time interval they use when checking on situations like this I would love to hear it so I can apply it in the future.

That's hard... but not surprising.

I came home one day to find a cow out in the back forty with a big red sack hanging out her back end. As I got close I could see it was a balloon of birth sack with a bunch of fluid in it and the calf's head... but no feet. I was sure the calf was dead, but knowing I'd have to help to save the cow I started to push her toward the barn where the headgate was.
There was a pond on the way and the damn cow walked right in and LAID DOWN. I was all ready to step in and wade, but the cow got up and I got her to the barn and into the headgate. By this time the calf had slipped back inside.
I told the wife to bring the calf puller and she disappeared to go find it.
I reached in to see what was going on and in putting a finger in the calf's mouth the calf moved!
So I was trying to find the front legs and pull them forward, up to my armpit in the cow, and my city girl wife walks in... She realizes where my arm is, her eyes get huge, her mouth drops open, and she does a quick 180 and she goes back the way she came... out of the barn.
I got the legs in the right position and the calf pulled without any equipment, actually a very easy pull up to the hips and then a quick twist and the calf plops on the ground... alive.
I drag the calf to the front of the headgate so the cow can see what she produced and can clean it, and all was good.

The thing that got to me was the damn cow laying down in the pond with the calf's head sticking out of her rear end, all enclosed inside a bag of sloshing fluid. I thought sure the calf was dead.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

That's hard... but not surprising.

I came home one day to find a cow out in the back forty with a big red sack hanging out her back end. As I got close I could see it was a balloon of birth sack with a bunch of fluid in it and the calf's head... but no feet. I was sure the calf was dead, but knowing I'd have to help to save the cow I started to push her toward the barn where the headgate was.
There was a pond on the way and the damn cow walked right in and LAID DOWN. I was all ready to step in and wade, but the cow got up and I got her to the barn and into the headgate. By this time the calf had slipped back inside.
I told the wife to bring the calf puller and she disappeared to go find it.
I reached in to see what was going on and in putting a finger in the calf's mouth it moved!
So I was trying to find the front legs and pull them forward, up to my armpit in the cow, and my city girl wife walks in... She realizes where my arm is, her eyes get huge, her mouth drops open, and she does a quick 180 and she goes back the way she came... out of the barn.
I got the legs in the right position and the calf pulled without any equipment, actually a very easy pull up to the hips and then a quick twist and the calf plops on the ground... alive.
I drag the calf to the front of the headgate so the cow can see what she produced and can clean it, and all was good.

The thing that got to me was the damn cow laying down in the pond with the calf's head sticking out of her rear end, all enclosed inside a bag of sloshing fluid. I thought sure the calf was dead.

I've had some adventures trying to pen some up in the past as well, but never had one lay down in the pond on me (knock on wood). There have been a couple where I was so sure it had been long enough that the calf wasn't going to be alive when i got it figured out. I know exactly how you felt when you said the mouth moved, it's such a relief. I had to pull one this spring where the head was looking back over the shoulder and when I was finally able to hook a finger in the mouth to reposition the head the calf bit down ever so slightly. I pushed that cow about as far as one can be pushed on my place, through a creek and my pecan orchard and then it took awhile to get it all situated inside, I was shocked when that one turned out alright. Hopefully all mine avoid the "water features" moving forward, that sounds like a whole extra level of stress.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

You can do everything perfect, check on the clock like a machine, have all your 'maybe needed' supplies ready to go and you're still going to loose some.
Look at me talk.
I know exactly what you are saying, the could have, should have, would have after something goes wrong is just plain a killer on ones mindset.
Let me guess your doc would put you in a straight jacket in a locked room if he/she knew what kind of activities you are doing after just taking off your neck brace!!

I'm sorry you've lost that one, especially if it was someone elses project.
Our old Vet always told us not to intervene unless the water is broke and not to break the bubble unless it's something obvious like just one leg hanging out, or just a tail. That the clock starts when the water breaks.
To me it sounds like you did everything just how you should, who knows, there might have been something wrong with that calf before you saw it's head out. Not everyone can be as lucky as Travlr and his dugout cow. =D
Most likely nothing what any of us says is going to help your bummed out feeling, BUT hearing everybody else going through moments like this does help ease the mind. At least for me it does. I hope for you too.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Checking every couple hours and coming out to see a calf on the ground (she calved by herself) with the d#$% sac over its face and the calf dead.

Only had I been there to watch the actual birth could've saved that one. But it still stinks!

 

[TexasRancher]

Sorry and saddened for your loss. Don't beat yourself up....our sleep is needed too...we can't win them all.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

You can do everything perfect, check on the clock like a machine, have all your 'maybe needed' supplies ready to go and you're still going to loose some.
Look at me talk.
I know exactly what you are saying, the could have, should have, would have after something goes wrong is just plain a killer on ones mindset.
Let me guess your doc would put you in a straight jacket in a locked room if he/she knew what kind of activities you are doing after just taking off your neck brace!!

I'm sorry you've lost that one, especially if it was someone elses project.
Our old Vet always told us not to intervene unless the water is broke and not to break the bubble unless it's something obvious like just one leg hanging out, or just a tail. That the clock starts when the water breaks.
To me it sounds like you did everything just how you should, who knows, there might have been something wrong with that calf before you saw it's head out. Not everyone can be as lucky as Travlr and his dugout cow. =D
Most likely nothing what any of us says is going to help your bummed out feeling, BUT hearing everybody else going through moments like this does help ease the mind. At least for me it does. I hope for you too.

Absolutely, I posted partly for information and partly because I knew I wasn't the only one who had something like this happen and it helps to hear from others when I'm frustrated or disappointed.

 

[MurraysMutts]

It happens. And ya never forget the first one ya lost either.

I was late getting home and had a heifer due. She's the first daughter of my very first cow. Got home about 2 hrs later than normal to see her down with a calf 2/3s out. I wiggle thru the fence, stood up and promptly got knocked right back down by the hot wire.

Anyway, got to her and calf basically just fell right out. Mama had just given up I guess. Wasn't a huge calf. Just a good normal sized calf out of a heifer. D.o.a. unfortunately.
That first time is heartbreaking. All the coulda shoulda woulda.....

I spent 3 weeks grafting a calf on that heifer!
Ungrateful witch.
Shes done great ever since. Won't keep a heifer out if her tho!