Calving

[City Guy]

Dun; Now we're getting somewhere--"grazing fescue is different than grazing other grasses" Do tell please. Start from the beginning and leave nothing out if you would, please. I know the endophytes are concentrated in the stems and seed heads and it is worst in summer, but manifests in winter. Would it be wise (even possible) to cut the seed heads off (say about the top 5-6 inches) or maybe cut the stuff in June as hay and maybe again in Aug? Sept? before seed heads form again. Would that leave time to stockpile for winter?

 

[talltimber]

"I was told", "I heard", "I read somewhere" or something similar is usually how I start to tell or convey something I don't know as the absolute truth. And unless you were told by someone that doesn't stretch the truth, ever, unless you saw it yourself, you don't REALLY know if it is or not.

With that said, I believe dun has mentioned this before, and it was relayed from a first hand experience by my Dad years ago, "and don't think that you can clip it high and save all the leaf. You'll never keep up with all the pinkeye you get with them sticking their heads down through those stems". So, I either cut it to six in or so, or i don't cut it.

With trying rotational grazing the first time this year, my usual bush hogging schedule is not correct, but I am keeping a vegetative state going in a few patches for grazing later. Right now the weeds are really beginning to grow well, so I may have to clip again. Mid Aug clip seems to do good for stockpiling here.

 

[dun]

You won;t want to hear this either, but not all grasses stockpile.

 

[M-5]

You won;t want to hear this either, but not all grasses stockpile.

Down here if you stock pile you stockpile dead grass, they will eat some of it but you lose a lot and you better off cutting it and baling it when in its prime.

 

[dun]

You won;t want to hear this either, but not all grasses stockpile.

Down here if you stock pile you stockpile dead grass, they will eat some of it but you lose a lot and you better off cutting it and baling it when in its prime.

But gee, what one person claims is that what works in one place will work everywhere, i.e. the "silver bullet" theory

 

[M-5]

You won;t want to hear this either, but not all grasses stockpile.

Down here if you stock pile you stockpile dead grass, they will eat some of it but you lose a lot and you better off cutting it and baling it when in its prime.

But gee, what one person claims is that what works in one place will work everywhere, i.e. the "silver bullet" theory

but the BOOKS told him it would work so it must be true. No real world experience , No money lost, Nothing Invested.

 

[angus9259]

After getting my batchelor's in engineering I got a masters and doctorate in ministry. After all that study and book reading I knew I could finally get out there and start doing church "the right way" - the way it was described by the professors and in the books. It wasn't till I started doing it - being a pastor - that I realized that my "education" was just about to begin.... Both the books and practice have been helpful, but discarding one in favor of the other leads to problems.

City Guy - no one is slamming your book knowledge. What I am challenging is your "prescriptions" only using information from that one lens.

 

[TCRanch]

The cow will consume about 50% more feed in her last month of gestation than her calf will in it's first 4 months of life (grass, I'm talking about) so cow's needs are paramount. Around here (Central IL) that means letting her graze new grass from mid-March till late April and calving late April thru end of May.
Otherwise buy expensive hay and supplements and when the new grass comes along the calves will be standing in it while they nurse! When a May born calf is really beginning to graze, the cool season grasses are making a comeback (September). This is ranching in sync with nature!
Unless you have excellent quality stockpiled grass there is no good reason to calve any other seasons but spring and fall.

And yet Mother Nature has her own agenda. Extreme drought for consecutive years, extreme winter conditions, flooding, etc - all potential game changers. I'm just suggesting that when you do purchase your first cattle/implement your well thought out strategy, you should also be prepared for Plan B. And Plan C. There is no right or wrong if the end result is healthy animals, preferably at a profit but realizing there is no guarantee.

 

[City Guy]

Point taken. I just assume that everyone has a drought plan and inclement weather plan already in place.

 

[City Guy]

GOOD GRIEF, DON'T YOU GUYS LISTEN? I have said that what I know about this business I learned from cattle producers--from all over the world. People like you. I am looking at the book shelves to my left and count 10 large notebooks filled with printed info (and my own handwritten notes). And the filing cabinet behind me contains at least two drawers of material yet to be sorted and filed. To my left is a fat folder with info I have gleaned from you all just since I started on this forum. I am at the point in my studies where I no longer look for info that supports my preconceived ideas, but rather I seek ideas to the contrary! Remember, in my initial introduction I asked you all to change my mind if you could. And you have. I now realize that it is an economic necessity to breed heifers to calve at two years of age. And you have opened my eyes about the validity of BSEs. I learned these things because you were kind enough to WRITE THEM DOWN and I was smart enough TO READ THEM. Sounds like book learnin' to me. Or should I discount it because I read it and did not experience it?
Just as with all my other studies I don't believe all that I read on this site. Some of it makes no sense!! I have to read "between the lines" sometimes to learn anything. But I am learning. I've said before I can learn from your experience and you can learn from my ignorance.

And for heaven's sake, please stop with the "Every situation is different" mantra. I KNOW THAT!!! I'm going to start calling you all "Captain Obvious" or "Colonel Cliche".

 

[City Guy]

talltimber: Now that is info I can use! The pink eye danger eluded me. I'll be sure to mention that I heard it from a person I know to be absolutely honest. Thanks

 

[Supa Dexta]

You just don't get it. You go on and on about everything you know and have learnt over so many yrs - and that you learned it from real people and real books.. Maybe go out and get some real experience yourself before acting like a know-it-all. Go endure something that even remotely resembles a wreck. But for f sakes, read more and talk less. You paint yourself as a pretentious a.ss hole in every thread.

 

[angus9259]

GOOD GRIEF, DON'T YOU GUYS LISTEN? I am at the point in my studies where I no longer look for info that supports my preconceived ideas, but rather I seek ideas to the contrary!

If you are at the point where you are looking for contrarian views then why are you so wound up that WE aren't listening? If you want us to learn from your ignorance, then why did this entire argument start with your desire to pass on knowledge to us re the best time to calve? Perhaps you also want us to learn from your knowledge?

You seem like a smart guy that has learned a lot through reading and talking with producers. Nice work. But you don't seem to be listening either from many on these boards that are suggesting that if you REALLY want to learn now - you go DO.

 

[cmay]

The cow will consume about 50% more feed in her last month of gestation than her calf will in it's first 4 months of life (grass, I'm talking about) so cow's needs are paramount. Around here (Central IL) that means letting her graze new grass from mid-March till late April and calving late April thru end of May.
Otherwise buy expensive hay and supplements and when the new grass comes along the calves will be standing in it while they nurse! When a May born calf is really beginning to graze, the cool season grasses are making a comeback (September). This is ranching in sync with nature!
Unless you have excellent quality stockpiled grass there is no good reason to calve any other seasons but spring and fall.

The cow needs the best feed when she is nursing a calf - not before. The calves SHOULD be standing in good grass while they nurse. As for your last sentence - it shows lack of experience and lack of exposure to diverse operations.

 

[City Guy]

What I meant by the calf standing in tall grass was that the cow had missed it when she needed it the last month of gestation, sorry I didn't say it better. Of course she needs her best nutrition when she is lactating but that reinforces my point. Where is the good grass in February or March? Florida, maybe? OK great. Hawaii? great again. South Texas? Super!

And you are correct, I have not actually been on a ranch where mob grazing or stockpiling are practiced. But I have been around farms where it is NOT practiced and I don't like what I see. Skinny cattle eating poor quality hay in mud packed lots. I have traveled to ranches that buy 4-color shiny ads in the breed magazines and been so shocked at the down right filthy and dangerous conditions. I can support more cows on my lawn than some of these people can support on 10 acres of these outdoor gymnasiums they call pastures. Maybe I'd be just as disappointed with mob grazing outfits, but I doubt it.

 

[City Guy]

Supa Dexta and angus9259; Yes I am a pretensions a.sshole and I'm sorry. I really don't mean to antagonize anyone.

I do get frustrated however when I bring up a point of fact or opinion and get answers like "stop reading and start doing" Don't you think I would if I could?? Responses like that are not answers; they are childish and completely useless.
DOING IT is totally impossible for me for personal physical, financial and marital reasons. Might as well tell me to have a baby just so I know what it's like!
When I ask a question or state an opinion, even if I sound like a pretentious a.sshole, all I want is an answer or a rebuttal or a suggestion or a point in the right direction. Even "go to hell you pretentious a.sshole", would be better that " go do it and see what happens". At least go to hell is honest.
Frankly, when I get a reply like "go do it yourself and you'll see" I get a sick feeling that the person doesn't know the answer.
It has been my life long experience that when I engage people about their professions they are eager to discuss it (unless they are CIA spies). I don't get that from SOME of you guys. I have asked dozens of cattlepersons these or similar questions and shared opinions and the majority are civil and usually helpful and polite. What's wrong here? I suspect my brazen attitude isn't helping and I'll work on controlling it.

 

[inyati13]

Supa Dexta and angus9259; Yes I am a pretensions a.sshole and I'm sorry. I really don't mean to antagonize anyone.

I do get frustrated however when I bring up a point of fact or opinion and get answers like "stop reading and start doing" Don't you think I would if I could?? Responses like that are not answers; they are childish and completely useless.
DOING IT is totally impossible for me for personal physical, financial and marital reasons. Might as well tell me to have a baby just so I know what it's like!
When I ask a question or state an opinion, even if I sound like a pretentious a.sshole, all I want is an answer or a rebuttal or a suggestion or a point in the right direction. Even "go to be nice you pretentious a.sshole", would be better that " go do it and see what happens". At least go to be nice is honest.
Frankly, when I get a reply like "go do it yourself and you'll see" I get a sick feeling that the person doesn't know the answer.
It has been my life long experience that when I engage people about their professions they are eager to discuss it (unless they are CIA spies). I don't get that from SOME of you guys. I have asked dozens of cattlepersons these or similar questions and shared opinions and the majority are civil and usually helpful and polite. What's wrong here? I suspect my brazen attitude isn't helping and I'll work on controlling it.

First, this is a great line:

Might as well tell me to have a baby just so I know what it's like!

Second, you ask what is wrong here? You stated:
DOING IT is totally impossible for me for personal physical, financial and marital reasons.

If it is totally impossible for you to practice the vocation of cattle husbandry, then, only a user who is bored out of their mind is going to waste time responding to your convoluted dialog.

Third, the vocation of cattle husbandry is as much an art as it is a science. You fail to appreciate that cattleman are skilled. There is an art to what they do. You approach it as if it is an Algebra equation. You ask a question. If the response to the question does not fit your equation, you whine.

Fourth, you are not trusted. You are not trusted because your engagement has the smell of being disingenuous.

Fifth, it is a free and open forum. If you don't break the rules, knock yourself out.

Lastly, use your time wisely! Life is short.

 

[tater74]

I was going to respond, but Inyati covered all my points and said it a lot better than I would have.

 

[cow pollinater]

Of course she needs her best nutrition when she is lactating but that reinforces my point. Where is the good grass in February or March? Florida, maybe? OK great. Hawaii? great again. South Texas? Super!

The cow doesn't hit peak milk for around forty five days and baby calves don't eat all that much so it's best to calve BEFORE the grass comes. They're still fairly cheap to feed and the calves get some age on them so that the first grass comes just about the time they're able to handle all that milk without scouring and can also use the grass themselves.

 

[f1tiger]

Here in northeast Texas we calve starting around Feb 10 ; sometimes mother nature will throw a curve and we will get in single digits but that is life: I am a man of a few words but please mr city guy here is a quarter and call someone who cares .....