Calving paralysis

[Anonymous]

> I have an angus cow (4 year old)
> down with calving paralysis. She
> had an above average still born
> calf. The paralysis seems to be
> affecting her back left leg. So
> far I have managed to roll her
> over to take the pressure off the
> leg. In my opinion it looks like I
> have more of a chance of losing
> her then keeping her alive (if she
> does survive I know to eliminate
> her from my breeding stock). Just
> thought I would get some last
> minute opinions before I shoot
> her. She has been down now for
> 24hrs, I am thinking of giving her
> another 24, at the same time I
> want to be humane. I just had the same thing with a heifer. I t might require some TLC But give her a week or two to get up and around and then fatten her up and adios.

 

[Anonymous]

Neigbor had a cow calve in a swamp last year and she went down. He dragged her 1/4 mile by one hind leg with the tractor to get her out and up to the barn. He rolled her several times a day. After a month he decided to just give up and shoot her. When he went out to milk that morning she was standing at the gate wanting in to the parlor. If the pelvis isn't cracked/broken the nerve damage has to be awfully severe for them to not get up. That applies to those that rae fighters and not "give uppers". Fighters will come through things you know will kill them, "give uppers" will die just because they don't have the will to live.

dun

> Day 3 My angus cow ('88-03' that's
> her number)had her 2nd shot of
> antiimflamataries today. She seems
> to be drinking and eating well. I
> managed to locate a set of hip
> clamps and lift her up today, just
> trying to get that blood
> circulating again. I have taken
> into account all the feedback that
> I'm getting and have decided to
> battle on and give her a chance to
> improve (I suppose time will only
> tell, pays to be positive). The
> reason I have selected this
> particular vet is for the fact
> that the she runs a very
> successful Angus stud along with
> her partner. The bull I purchased
> off them earlier in the year is a
> son of CA Future direction and he
> has just been selected as one of
> the top TEN sires for 2003 in
> Australia to be AI'd to some of
> the top hiefers/cows for a 3 year
> Agriculture trial. I studied EBV's
> for ages before selecting 3 bulls
> that I was interested in. Actually
> he was my 2nd choice on EBV's,
> did'nt like the look of choice
> number 1 in the paddock, However I
> feel that I'm heading off in
> another tangent. '88-03' is eating
> well and drinking plenty,
> hopefully she is a fighter and
> will get up. The vet says its not
> so much the size of the calf (of
> course big calves don't help) it's
> the amount of time the calf was
> pressing on her nerve. Will keep
> you guys posted.

 

[Anonymous]

> "I don't and will NEVER buy show
> cattle"

Did I say you did?

>"your lack of beef genetics
> are appalling."

Blackpower, there is no lack of genetics. All animals and humans do have "genetics". I would assume that if someone owned or managed beef cattle they would be presumed to have genetics, rather than a "lack of genetics".

The real question is whether a particular genetic package is good or bad, based on the value of the traits contained and passed on.

Not questioning your ancestry, just wondering about YOUR genetics.

 

[Anonymous]

> I don't and will NEVER buy show
> cattle your lack of beef genetics
> are appalling. I only buy range
> born and bred Hereford and Angus
> Bulls. Look up these names on the
> internet and see what they have
> done for the industry. Schutte and
> Sons Polled Herefords and Connealy
> Angus. If you told either of these
> people that they were raising show
> cattle they'd probably knock you
> on your ass.

Expected Progeny Differances (EPD's) are compairsons of one animal against all other animals in that breed. They are predictions based on past performance as recorded by information sumitted to the breed association and is only as reliable as the producers sumitting the infomation. However, with the number of breeders sumitting information, the ones that compromise their intrigity are out weighted by the ones that are honest since most are honest and want good information. The system was developed as another tool to be used in the selection of replacement animals and single trait selection should be avoided. The system does not allow compairson of animals of different breeds, such as Angus and Hereford. The respective program that each breed is based on reflectes the formulars from different universities. It would be nice if you could compair animals of different breeds acrosss the board, but we can't.

EPD's have little to do with the indiviual breeder. EPD's consider all animuals within a breed. EPD's are the best tool we have today. Everyone in the business should learn to understand and how to use them with other trait selection tools, keeping in mind that all selection tools, including visual, are only predictions.



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[Anonymous]

The vet says its not
> so much the size of the calf (of
> course big calves don't help) it's
> the amount of time the calf was
> pressing on her nerve.

Your vet is right, the direct cause of the paralysis is the amount and length of pressure on the nerve, The INDIRECT cause is a calf that is too big for a cow's birth canal. It is impossible to directly select for the length and time a cow will spend in the calving process.

 

[Anonymous]

There are cross breed EPDs. This allows comparing Angus to Hereford to Simmenthal, etc. But the catch is, in a crossbreeding program they don't/can't take into consideration heterosis. With calving weights, the heterosis doesn't start when the calf is born, it's while the cow is still carrying it. That an screw up BW EPDs. The other catch is, unless the EPDs are in the high 80 or 90 range the variation can be significant. I don't have the exact variations handy, but for BW an accuracy of 20 may have a variation of 5 or 6 pounds. Therefore, a +2 EPD could really be a plus 7 or 8. Or on the other hand a minus 5 or 6. Starts to get real significant if accuracy isn't there. We only us bulls with an accuracy of 85 or higher. Only used to use those in the mid to high 90's but with Polled Herefords it's hard to find any available that have the other traits we are looking for and still fall into the BW/calving ease range that we deem acceptable. We also only use the low accuracy bulls on proven easy calving mature cows. That gives us an indication for subsequent years what can be expected.

dun

> Expected Progeny Differances
> (EPD's) are compairsons of one
> animal against all other animals
> in that breed. They are
> predictions based on past
> performance as recorded by
> information sumitted to the breed
> association and is only as
> reliable as the producers
> sumitting the infomation. However,
> with the number of breeders
> sumitting information, the ones
> that compromise their intrigity
> are out weighted by the ones that
> are honest since most are honest
> and want good information. The
> system was developed as another
> tool to be used in the selection
> of replacement animals and single
> trait selection should be avoided.
> The system does not allow
> compairson of animals of different
> breeds, such as Angus and
> Hereford. The respective program
> that each breed is based on
> reflectes the formulars from
> different universities. It would
> be nice if you could compair
> animals of different breeds
> acrosss the board, but we can't.

> EPD's have little to do with the
> indiviual breeder. EPD's consider
> all animuals within a breed. EPD's
> are the best tool we have today.
> Everyone in the business should
> learn to understand and how to use
> them with other trait selection
> tools, keeping in mind that all
> selection tools, including visual,
> are only predictions.

 

[Anonymous]

> You can berry your head in the sand and hide from the facts or argue with technology, the fact is you will get left behind if it already has'nt happened. Typical arrogant ignorant wanker left in the past. I have never mentioned anything about a show bull, you have justed jumped to conclusions Mr Know all.

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[Anonymous]

I said 15 years not 15 cows learn to read. I've had maybe 8 cows go down over 15 years and 6 of those 8 were short termers don't get in a match with me i'll make a fool out of you.

 

[Anonymous]

I like your vet. She's accurate in the size isn't as much a factor as pressure and time! Just to throw my 2cents in, if rolled frequently, fed and watered,lifted as necessary, the majority of down animals will get up BARRING complications like fractures, dislocations, mastitis, pneumonia... Just remember that they are weakened after being down and can go down again if not kept clean, dry, bedded etc--I wouldn't stick her outside on an icy pad, for example...

The cause of going down is obturator paralysis. They often have a specific hitch in the hock afterwards which will gradually improve!

Good Luck! V

 

[Anonymous]

I went back and read your initial post, which said, " I've seen one out of about 15 over the years get up.". I certainly interupted that to mean 1 of 15 over several years, not 1 animal over 15 years. I think an apology is in order!

> I said 15 years not 15 cows learn
> to read. I've had maybe 8 cows go
> down over 15 years and 6 of those
> 8 were short termers don't get in
> a match with me i'll make a fool
> out of you.



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[Anonymous]

BLACKPowder,

This board is for people to trade ideas and learn from each other. The only thing I've learned from you is that you have a Mouthy Attitude. Your lack of integrity is hurting you as a contributor to this board!

 

[Anonymous]

> Strange, I've only seen maybe one
> in 10 that didn't

I'm with you dun. I've had a few heifers bred to what was "supposed" to be a heifer bull deliver a huge calf and not get up for two to ten days. The hardest part is keeping some hay and water in front of them when they are in the pasture with the rest of the herd. I ended up putting a hay ring over one, and the others left her alone. All of mine have gotten up. All stayed in the herd without future problems.



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[Anonymous]

> The other catch is, unless
> the EPDs are in the high 80 or 90
> range the variation can be
> significant.

I don't know about other breeds, but in Angus the accuracy says nothing about the variation. I argue with them about it and tell them I don't think a bull should have a high level of accuracy if his numbers are all over the board, but the accuracy number only indicates that more numbers have been turned in across more herds. The higher the accuracy the less his EPD will expect to be corrected over time. The Angus also have a new policy that a bull can't get over 90 for accuracy unless records include four or more herds. (Significant because the bull can have up to three owners named.) I hae used more than one bull that threw 100 pound bulls and 60 pound heifers and was between a 2 and 2.5 BW EPD with a high accuracy. All of my down heifers were due to bulls with this BW profile. I have large pelvic heifers that are expected to handle a 75 to 85 pound calf on their own and some have handled the 85 to 95 range without needing help.

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[Anonymous]

> BLACKPowder,

I think Black P. is probly a very handy cow person, he is just so ( Know it all), and presents things wrong. I think we sould all strive to be as great as him. But I am sure glad I am Not his neighbor, My bull might get in his field, and he would shoot it. ALF

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[Anonymous]

I think if you check with the association they will tell you about the variation based on accuracy.

dun

> I don't know about other breeds,
> but in Angus the accuracy says
> nothing about the variation. I
> argue with them about it and tell
> them I don't think a bull should
> have a high level of accuracy if
> his numbers are all over the
> board, but the accuracy number
> only indicates that more numbers
> have been turned in across more
> herds. The higher the accuracy the
> less his EPD will expect to be
> corrected over time. The Angus
> also have a new policy that a bull
> can't get over 90 for accuracy
> unless records include four or
> more herds. (Significant because
> the bull can have up to three
> owners named.) I hae used more
> than one bull that threw 100 pound
> bulls and 60 pound heifers and was
> between a 2 and 2.5 BW EPD with a
> high accuracy. All of my down
> heifers were due to bulls with
> this BW profile. I have large
> pelvic heifers that are expected
> to handle a 75 to 85 pound calf on
> their own and some have handled
> the 85 to 95 range without needing
> help.

 

[Anonymous]

<A HREF="http://www.angus.org/sireeval/accuracy.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.angus.org/sireeval/accuracy.htm</A>

dun

> I don't know about other breeds,
> but in Angus the accuracy says
> nothing about the variation. I
> argue with them about it and tell
> them I don't think a bull should
> have a high level of accuracy if
> his numbers are all over the
> board, but the accuracy number
> only indicates that more numbers
> have been turned in across more
> herds. The higher the accuracy the
> less his EPD will expect to be
> corrected over time. The Angus
> also have a new policy that a bull
> can't get over 90 for accuracy
> unless records include four or
> more herds. (Significant because
> the bull can have up to three
> owners named.) I hae used more
> than one bull that threw 100 pound
> bulls and 60 pound heifers and was
> between a 2 and 2.5 BW EPD with a
> high accuracy. All of my down
> heifers were due to bulls with
> this BW profile. I have large
> pelvic heifers that are expected
> to handle a 75 to 85 pound calf on
> their own and some have handled
> the 85 to 95 range without needing
> help.

 

[Anonymous]

Good information. You make an especially good point that even with a high reported degree of accuracy, such as above 90, there is no guarantee of the range in variation that you might experience. The numbers are not calculated and presented in that fashion, although with enough effort they could be.

 

[Anonymous]

EPD discussions alwasy remind me of years ago when we used a Lincoln Red bull on a lot of clients cows and heifers. One client bred a couple of dozen cows to the bull and all the calves were in the 65-70 lb range. Except one cow that dropped a 100+ pound calf. The next year we used an Angus bull on the same cows and all the cows, including the monsters mom had calves that ran around 75-85 lbs. The next year we used the Lincoln Red bull again, every cow had a nice small calf, except the one. Her calf was even bigger that year then the earlier one. For some reason that cow and bull combination just didn't work, or maybe worked too well. The nick is always the question. Some matings just don't work no matter how accurate your data. In subsequent years we used different bulls and this one cows calves alwasy fell within the range of all the others. Most of these cows were what at that time called Ankina, Angus X Chianina.

dun

> Good information. You make an
> especially good point that even
> with a high reported degree of
> accuracy, such as above 90, there
> is no guarantee of the range in
> variation that you might
> experience. The numbers are not
> calculated and presented in that
> fashion, although with enough
> effort they could be.

 

[Anonymous]

Great real world examples! It is not hard to see why many do not embrace EPDs. On the other hand, if you understand them and they are developed, used and promoted right, they can be a valuable tool.

I don't think there is any right or wrong as to whether to use them or not. Just depends upon personal philosophy, personal goals and personal experience.

 

[Anonymous]

> BLACKPowder,

> This board is for people to trade
> ideas and learn from each other.
> The only thing I've learned from
> you is that you have a Mouthy
> Attitude. Your lack of integrity
> is hurting you as a contributor to
> this board!

Thank you for putting this guy in his place. He is a disgrace to the cattle industry.