Calving ease bulls

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":1qg79snu said:
Management varies GREATLY depending on location. And rightly so.
My thoughts are that you should have a breed of cattle that fits YOUR environment so that you can raise heifers, under your particular management, to be able to give you a healthy, live, growthy, money making calf - not a throw-away (not that any are throw-aways, just won't make enough to pay the upkeep of the heifer dam.)
If you grass feed (which I love that term - don't we ALL grass feed???), and it takes a heifer a year & a half to get big enough to breed, that's fine. It's just my opionion that you should be able to breed her to her own breed and feel safe. Many don't use the same breed because their management is crossbreeding - very smart - money making decision. But, to HAVE to get a bull that produces a "dink" calf just doesn't seem right to me.
There is no "only" way to do anything in our business - which makes things fun & exciting. Thanks for the comments.
Another side-note. "Grass Fed" shouldn't be an excuse for starving cattle. A mother called prior to a junior show and wanted a seperate class for their steer because they only had "grass fed" cattle and sold "grass fed" beef. I explained that all the steers show by weight. She didn't like that, so the kids only signed up for showmanship. The animals were pathetic - and I don't think they had a clue how poorly they looked.
love it as much as i love being called a grass farmer.... it takes a special kind of dunb ass not to be able to grow grass in some form or other :cowboy:
 
I think Jeanniehas nailed it. I myself could never understand why seedstock producers went outside their breed for calving ease on heifers...I know over the years I used to go the Longhorn or Corriente for heifers... The last bunch of heifers I used a young proven Limi bull...A poster on this board many years ago that had Kemi Limousin had a bull that she wanted to move called Shag Man...I paid a little more than normal for the bull, but no calf weighed more than 55 pounds at birth, and most of the calves caught up with their counterparts out bulls that were not calving ease bulls.. I continued to use the bull for years until he became lame... He made such an impression on me that I had him collected to use on heifers in the future if I get back in the cattle biz....lol,,,,of course that means I will have to get someone to AI.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3b4t15mh said:
That is confusing to me. If you can sell purebred bulls for buyers to use on british cows or continentals, I would have thought the same bulls could be used on your heifers.
BTW, you can get all the milk & maternal from Simmental AND have easy calving - and I'm sure there are other breeds that offer up the same benefits without the CE issue. To me, if your PB bulls are too hard calving for your heifers, than they are potential difficult calvers for your customers. I would not risk that. One bad issue and there goes your reputation.
Hard to produce purebred stock when you're having to go outside the breed to find a CE bull that will allow the cow to give unassisted live birth and survive herself so seems the purebred part of the business is a hope and a prayer.
 
I agree that lifestyle and environment often dictate breed choice, while building up my herd, I had a militry commitment that kept me deployed for long periods, the harsh conditions on the ranch required cattle that can thrive on poor forage, and walk long distances to water, calves had to be on their feet and active to keep from becoming predator snacks. Native breeds that had developed in our environment through natural selection over thousands of years, were the only logical choice.
Easy care cattle that made a profit under these conditions, have earned their keep in many different environments in recent years since the political barriers to their being exported have been removed.
 
redfornow":3saq60hj said:
But case in point, there have been alot of blanket statements made here with no regard to location, goals, and lifestyles of the persons involved.

I agree. Showing71 gave a perfect example of why it might be beneficial for some to use a different bull on heifers than they do on their cows. I've never owned a head of cattle in my life and I can think of others. It doesn't always mean that person is a poor manager, or behind the times, or going backward. It just might mean that it's the best thing for their situation. To each his own.
 
VanC":1h9jmw6h said:
redfornow":1h9jmw6h said:
But case in point, there have been alot of blanket statements made here with no regard to location, goals, and lifestyles of the persons involved.

I agree. Showing71 gave a perfect example of why it might be beneficial for some to use a different bull on heifers than they do on their cows. I've never owned a head of cattle in my life and I can think of others. It doesn't always mean that person is a poor manager, or behind the times, or going backward. It just might mean that it's the best thing for their situation. To each his own.
"I've never owned a head of cattle in my life and I can think of others." I'm not following you here VC. What did you mean?
 
It's always hard to really get a feel for someone's operation, meaning, etc. through typing on an internet forum. Jeanne- great topic. And I realize people do things differently, I was just trying to shed some light as to why someone out there with PB seedstock - especially one who has a, for lack of better word, rare breed - might not breed heifers PB the first time around. I'm not breeding them to something that would produce a 'dink' calf, the crossbred calves out of my heifers gain just as well as everything else.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that, yes on my Angus and Red Angus heifers, I use proven AI sires of their respected breeds (not chasing the next hottest thing, especially on heifers) because they have substantial data to back up that they are truly CE. Could I use one of my own PB Tarentaise herd bulls on my PB tarentaise heifers, sure I could. But my data of my 2 yr old herd bull is far less accurate, with him only siring approximately 5 PB calves last year (getting the cows who didn't stick AI). Could I try and breed for a PB Tar heifer bull? Sure, but I've worked with a guy who was trying to do just that, produce PB Tarentaise CE heifer bulls, and I thought they all looked like they should have been steered they were so feminine and unimpressive. I can try and match up heifers with the best possible PB Tarentaise AI bull I have in the tank, but the data on them is so small (there were less than 650 registered animals last year to compare), I'm still gambling.

So with a breed that doesn't have other PB operations of the same breed on every corner, one that is not popular enough to have sires with ABS or Genex where I can have the possibility of knowing that 999 out of 1000 times a calf will be small enough to count as calving ease, I don't see why going with "better safe than sorry" is bad. Heifers are bad enough to calve, I'm just trying to make it easier on them and me in the long run.
 
In the purebred business if one must select a bull specifically for the use of breeding first calf heifers then it is obvious that the bull may not fit the goals intended for the rest of the herd. Although these calves would be salable, wouldn't this fact alone make most of the calves culls as far as the this particular herd is concerned?
I agree that there are those bulls within most breeds that are capable of producing low birth weights and high weaning weights. These genetics and all other good genetics are usually well advertised. What always bothers me is what they do not tell you. What other genetics are tagging along that you may not want in your herd?
 
Showing71 - I get what you are saying exactly. But, you are NOT producing dinks. You are crossbreeding to known sires and getting crossbred heifers which are your high selling items. I get it. It's working for you. (you have shown us pics & you have some great cattle).
I guess I have a hard time understanding why breeders use any breed that is "rare" because you are always fighting an uphill battle to get the genetics you want. The gene pool is just too small. But, without breeders like you, we wouldn't have them in U.S. :banana: Good thing there aren't a bunch of "ME's" in this business!!!!

Novatech - actually, there are many bulls to choose from that can be used on PB heifers and also on the cows and give you extremely high saleable product. With no "tagged" along bad traits - well, possibly no more than ANY animal you breed. As I mentioned, I don't use any bull that is used just on heifers, but I have used bulls that I wouldn't "trust" on heifers.
With the use of EPD's (and no, I don't think they are "the all" in breeding - just ANOTHER tool in the box) - over the past 10-15 years?? breeders have developed some of the best balanced set of numbers with bulls that "match" the numbers & have the looks to go along with it. I know in "my" breed, I am totally amazed at how many great bulls there are to choose from. I can't speak for the Angus & Herefords, but I believe they are the same way. As well, as many others I'm sure.
 
Isomade":1sedr93x said:
VanC":1sedr93x said:
redfornow":1sedr93x said:
But case in point, there have been alot of blanket statements made here with no regard to location, goals, and lifestyles of the persons involved.

I agree. Showing71 gave a perfect example of why it might be beneficial for some to use a different bull on heifers than they do on their cows. I've never owned a head of cattle in my life and I can think of others. It doesn't always mean that person is a poor manager, or behind the times, or going backward. It just might mean that it's the best thing for their situation. To each his own.
"I've never owned a head of cattle in my life and I can think of others." I'm not following you here VC. What did you mean?

I meant that I can think of other reasons a person might want to use a different bull on heifers than he does on mature cows.

It seems most of you are looking at this thing from a seedstock producers point of view. I'm looking at it more from the typical commercial producers point of view. That doesn't mean that every management style will be different between the two. Some things are universal. But some things might be different because their goals are different. Yes many, maybe most, seedstock folks run their operations much like a commercial one. I would think that would be a good idea if they want repeat business. But their main focus is still selling breeding stock while the typical commercial producer's focus is selling pounds.

Jeanne's point is well taken, and I would think in most cases, even for the commercial folks, she's right. But not always, in my opinion. Either way, I've enjoyed the discussion.
 
That's ONE of the great things about our business in America. We can choose to operate whatever way pleases us, makes us the most money, or just for the fun.
Haying is DONE!!! I'm :banana: :banana: Started Monday, finished yesterday - wrapped 655 bales - with a few minor breakdowns (I do the wrapping job with a skid steer). Yard is still a parking lot of equipment. And remember all my complaining about the rain - we are a dust bowl now! go figure!
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":18y2sy03 said:
That's ONE of the great things about our business in America. We can choose to operate whatever way pleases us, makes us the most money, or just for the fun.
Haying is DONE!!! I'm :banana: :banana: Started Monday, finished yesterday - wrapped 655 bales - with a few minor breakdowns (I do the wrapping job with a skid steer). Yard is still a parking lot of equipment. And remember all my complaining about the rain - we are a dust bowl now! go figure!

Good for you!! It's been a long time, but I remember that feeling.
 
You have got be kidding me! Feed heifers? What are you a feed salesperson? Any heifer that can't bred, calve unassisted, and breed back on ONLY pasture and hay needs to be culled and sent straight to the sale barn, especially with high grain prices. And if they are purebred why would you want to add those poor doing inferior genetics that need to be fed to the genepool?

You make a serious mistake with your "throw away calf" argument, because what you said isn't quite reality. In 2004, I bought an average Lowline bull to try as a crossbreeding experiment. We had 3 Tarentaise heifers that were under a year of age and a commercial Red Angus heifer that was a little older. Despite the 3 Tarentaise all calving unassisted before the age of 2, all 4 heifers bred back on time. Since we never pulled the bull, 2 of them (50%) even calved a month earlier the following year!The kicker is that this was done on 6 acres of pasture & the pasture wasn't the best either. No supplement except for a mineral block (not loose) & hay from a neighbors field. But, the best part is that the only steer calf was weaned & fed only a limited amount of soy hulls for about 45-60 days. We were going to grass finish, but decided to sell him due to lack of space to properly do it, so we started feeding him some hulls & we took him to the sale barn. As the Lord is my witness, he brought $749.94 gross! His dam was one of the 2 that bred back a month early the following year!! Without being fed anything extra!!! We kept 2 of the heifers for cows and they have been great. We sold one of the other heifer (out of the commercial red angus) and we got $1,500 for her (hardly throw away price). Since most grassfed people are willing to pay premium of 10-30 cents over market for grassfed stockers, we have only taken 4 of the half Lowline weanling age calves to the sale barn. Everytime to free up additional space and except for the $749.94 steer, it was out youngest calves that went to market. None of them has brought less than $548, despite them being some of the smallest and the least desirable of the group. Not too bad for "throw aways", especially when you don't have to worry about feeding the heifers to bcs of 6-6.5! I don't know what to tell you except that you are very wrong on your assumption. Very wrong! Quite honestly I don't care what you do or raise, but I do wish that you would not make assumptions about things that you obviously have no personal experience with.

With all that said, my memory is not as perfect as it used to be, so I double checked these facts and corrected the steer price to "no less than $548". I thought it was no less than $650, but upon further review, I was wrong. To the best of my knowledge the above info is now 100% accurate.

Jeanne - Simme Valley":1iddtber said:
In a purebred operation, your heifers are a valuable comodity. They SHOULD represent your best genetics (if you are a breeder and not a propogator (sp?)).
I do not believe in the thought that you should NOT feed your heifers while pregnant (and neither does all the research). Heifers should be fed to stay in BCS of 6 to 6.5 at calving. No, they should not be FAT, but there's a world of difference between being in good BCS & FAT. If you drop down to below a 5, she might have more calving problems than a slightly fat heifer & her calf is liable to have health problems because they may be born weak (weak calf syndrome caused by the dam being too thin).
IMO, if you can't find a CE bull to use on heifers within your breed, then all your bull calves should be castrated.
I breed heifers (and most cows anymore) to CE bulls, but they are also moderate to heavy growth bulls also. I strongly watch the maternal CE on the bulls we use. I don't use a bull on our heifers that I don't use on the cowherd. I don't think it's just in the Simmental breed that we have such good selections. I think most of the breeds have done a superb job of finding those "out-lyers" and have multiplied those genetics (CE with great growth).
If you have a commercial operation, and don't have the ability to watch heifers closely, wouldn't it be more profitable to sell all your heifers & buy back more cows, rather than worry about a seperate bull for heifers? especially if you're "planning" on getting a "throw-away" calf? Time is money. That heifer needs to make you money - not cost you money for another year. Heifers are waaayyyy too expensive to raise, to give up another year of profit. JMHO
 
When I say "smallest & least desirable" above, I am talking about compared to the rest of the group of half Lowline calves. Except for the first steer that brought $749.94, the other 3 have been some of the younger calves out of the group and therefore would have taken a little longer to reach finished weight on grass, so they were the ones to go. They are certainly not the average weight half Lowline steer when they were sold... They were the lighter ones.
 
Now that I've had some sleep, I want to further my case. Not only have I had success with 50% Lowline calves out of first calf heifers, so have many others. I know plenty of people finishing grassfed steers in the 1,000 - 1,200 lb range & grainfed steers in the 1,100-1,300 lb range.

The problem is that unless you know me or have seen this yourself, you may question whether this is fantasy or reality. Well, the good folks at North Dakota State University Dickerson bred groups of commercial heifers to Lowline bulls for 3 years. Instead of "throw away calves", the 50% Lowline steers averaged around 51-52 inches tall & averaged 1,221 lbs from all steers that were born during their test period. Anybody who wishes can look that info up. The results have been printed in Beef Magazines, etc.

Once again, before you start insulting a bred of cattle or a breeding method that is proven to work well, make sure that you do your homework 1st. If you had done that, you might discover that those "throwaways" are actually pretty good. And who doesn't like 100% calf crops and being able to sleep during calving season or 1st calf heifers that bred back on time & even ahead the following year with NO supplemental feed except for mineral & hay or calves that can be raised, weaned & then grown on only grass or very little feed, if you wish to do that? Obviously not you, but a great many folks sure want that and have achieved that by using a Lowline bull on their heifers. If it didn't work, so many wouldn't be doing it & if so many weren't doing it, I doubt that you would be so bothered by it.
 
Wow - Shortstuff - evidently I really pulled your chain. :shock:
You missed the point. I never said heifers needed to be fed grain - I said they should be fed to be in BCS of 6 to 6.5. My heifers are bred to calve at 21-24 months old, then turned out on grass and never see grain again - none of my cows get grain - they are managed like a commercial herd, with a 60 day calving season. Yes, they do get fed 4-5# shell corn/hd/day thru the winter as weaned heifers. You need to adjust your comments to AREAS. Your heifers would not fair in my weather without some suppliment HERE as they do in your Kentucky weather.
Also, we are not talking crossbreeding. Your Lowline bull probably has a mature weight closer to an average British bull than a Jersey or Longhorn.
In the beginning, I might not have made myself clear enough. I was referring to breeders of one breed of cattle, going outside their breed in order to calve out their heifers. I feel in this day & age, there isn't really much use for a breed that cannot provide calving ease sires WITHIN their breed.
I never said somebody crossbreeding has throwaway heifers. If you are raising commercial cattle, you would be a fool NOT to crossbreed. People in the grass fed business NEED to raise smaller framed, lower finish weight cattle.
Of course, in most crossbreeding programs, they breed smaller cows to larger bulls, to get the increased WW from small cows, since our highest cost is the cost of feeding the COWHERD, not the bull. But, we are talking heifers. And if your Lowline bull is giving you money making calves, that's absolutely wonderful.
As I always say, bottom line IS the BOTTOM LINE.
I think most other posters on here got my point.
Did I bash Lowline cattle? No, I merely was making a point.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2k9suwgl said:
I don't understand the need to go outside your normal breed or breeds to achieve calving ease. To me, either you are raising totally the wrong breed for your management/environment or after years of trying to breed to "super" ce bulls, you are developing heifers that are too small.
Right up front - I am not bashing any breeds. There is a purpose for all breeds (well, some people THINK there is).
I hear people comment about using a LH or mini or lowline to breed to their heifers for CE. To me, that is going backwards. I think heifers should be "expected" to breed at a young age & calve unassisted, bred to a bull of the same breed, if I have done my job. Or a different breed if you are purposely crossbreeding. But, to use a bull that is going to give you a little calf that is never going to get as heavy as the dam, confuseses me.

This goes back to the REAL reason you are breeding your heifers------ to have something BIG to sell year 1 or to get her in the rotation of becoming a brood cow--- someday. This takes time (maturity)

To me, it's difficult enough for a heifer to "pay her own way", but when you don't give her a chance to raise you a growthy calf, you're going to go in the hole financially.
I know, I know, a small live calf is worth more than a large dead calf. But, I breed Simmental cattle and I cannot remember the last time we lost a calf from dystocia. It's hard enough to remember having a difficult pull - other than tangled up messes (TWINS for example). I am not saying we have not had some assists - but, they were probably not "necessary" to get a live calf out - just helps the dam come back into heat sooner if she doesn't have to work so hard.
If you do your homework and raise out your heifers, and breed to CE bulls with normal growth for your breed, you should be fine and the heifer should make you money even with a steer calf.
What am I missing?

Out of curiosity, I just checked my last 2 years calf crop report. Out of a little under 100 head, we had 2 easy hand pulls (heifers) and 1 easy hand pull set of twins (after adjusting positions).
 
It sounds like I may have misunderstood, so I apologize. I thought that you were implying that any small framed, small bw bull would produce a throw away calf that you could not make $$ with. And you specifically mentioned Lowline. But since you think that Lowline Angus bulls are OK to use in a crossbreeding program, I'm cool with that.

1 point that I do disagree with is you implying that KY (mostly fescue) is a superior place for "fleshing ability" compared to PA. You may be right, but I'm not buying it. Typically the farther north you go, the better the pasture. I know that pasture/hay in central IN & Il is superior to ours. PA is 2 states to the east of IN, so I doubt that the weather or the pasture quality is much different. And I do know people in IN, IL, OH, NY, VT, MI & PA with purebred and/or crossbred heifers who don't have to grainfeed. In fact, I know purebred Shorthorn folks in Ohio who don't grainfed also... Is OH similar enough to your area?

Jeanne - Simme Valley":32wtgdug said:
Wow - Shortstuff - evidently I really pulled your chain. :shock:
You missed the point. I never said heifers needed to be fed grain - I said they should be fed to be in BCS of 6 to 6.5. My heifers are bred to calve at 21-24 months old, then turned out on grass and never see grain again - none of my cows get grain - they are managed like a commercial herd, with a 60 day calving season. Yes, they do get fed 4-5# shell corn/hd/day thru the winter as weaned heifers. You need to adjust your comments to AREAS. Your heifers would not fair in my weather without some suppliment HERE as they do in your Kentucky weather.
Also, we are not talking crossbreeding. Your Lowline bull probably has a mature weight closer to an average British bull than a Jersey or Longhorn.
In the beginning, I might not have made myself clear enough. I was referring to breeders of one breed of cattle, going outside their breed in order to calve out their heifers. I feel in this day & age, there isn't really much use for a breed that cannot provide calving ease sires WITHIN their breed.
I never said somebody crossbreeding has throwaway heifers. If you are raising commercial cattle, you would be a fool NOT to crossbreed. People in the grass fed business NEED to raise smaller framed, lower finish weight cattle.
Of course, in most crossbreeding programs, they breed smaller cows to larger bulls, to get the increased WW from small cows, since our highest cost is the cost of feeding the COWHERD, not the bull. But, we are talking heifers. And if your Lowline bull is giving you money making calves, that's absolutely wonderful.
As I always say, bottom line IS the BOTTOM LINE.
I think most other posters on here got my point.
Did I bash Lowline cattle? No, I merely was making a point.
 
"Is OH similar enough to your area?"
NOPE - Canada is closer to our weather. I'm in Upstate New York, about 2-3? hours South of Canada.
You are right though. We have AWESOME pastures! It's just that pasture season is just that - a season. We have 185 days of WINTER :shock: (well, that's a bit of an exageration - but close :lol: )
We average 120" of snow each year. Rarely capable of grazing up to Nov 1st. Soonest we can get back on the pastures would be end of April - if lucky. We had 180" of snow last year.
We sort our herd into management groups in the winter. We have the mature cowherd, that gets limited hay (they run out & have to clean up waste), coming 2 & 3 yrs olds, fall cow/calf pairs & the replacement heifers. The replacement heifers actually get the worse, unprotected area and we full feed them baleage and suppliment with whole shell corn. Nothing fancy. Start them out with 2-3#, build up to maybe 5# during the peak of winter, and drop them back down to about 3-4# as weather gets milder or based on the BCS. Never want to see fat in the udder. And as I said, this corn actually lowers the consumption of hay being fed, so some of the cost is a wash.
So, different areas require different management. I expect my heifers to calve at 21-24 months of age, so I guess I feel I need to manage them accordingly.
 

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