Calling All Cattlemen

[MO-Ruminants]

We produce meat goats, but are respectfully requesting opinions/ideas from cattlemen for the following scenario:

Resources
1. 220 acres leased land ($40/acre). Land is rolling fields that have been "left go" for a number of years. Cedars, honey locust etc. beginning to encroach. Draws and gullies, but no established water. Old but serviceable perimeter fence. (serviceable for cattle, not goats)
2. 20 acres deeded land "across the road" with home. Perimeter fence and pond. Same terrain.
3. $40,000 cash
4. Experience in meat goat production. Minimal cattle experience beyond a bit of fooling with stockers on a small scale.
5. Solid corral/catch pen. No chute or handling facilities.
6. Close proximity to many cattle producers and stockyards
7. Serviceable heavy duty pickup

My experience lies in meat goats, and they will do well on this property after fencing is reconfigured to contain them. My interest in cattle is several-fold:
1. Goats thrive on brush, browse and weeds, and prefer to leave the grass when possible. Cattle could utilize grass.
2. Meat kid production produces cash flow once/year. Cash flow could be improved by selling a product multiple times/year.
3. I love cattle.

I am not interested in long-term debt, but am not opposed to using some leverage to accelerate processes.
I love cattle, but am not interested in subsidizing them...they need to be profitable.



Cattlemen, I welcome your specific and detailed ideas. You can look at this with cattle mindsets that I don't have. Outside-the-box ideas won't be ignored. Thanks to all who take the time!

 

[Katpau]

I think cattle and goats can be very compatible. They mostly eat different things, so they're not competing. I know a number of Cattlemen in these parts that run goats in with the cattle, but it is more for weed and brush control and the kids are just a byproduct.

The cattle market right now is terrible, so don't expect to make much money unless you're one of the Packers. In my opinion though, this could be the right time to buy a few cheap bred cows. I think within a year or two prices will improve dramatically. There are too many cull cows because of milk and calve prices, so many people are cutting back or gettng out of the business entirely. Those that got in to cattle when the markets were crazy high in 2014, are getting a reality check too, and I am sure many of them have abandoned their dream. I expect the market will correct itself and become profiable for the cow/calf producer in the next few years, so it might be the right time to buy cows. Prices may never be cheaper for those cows.

Like many cow/calf producers, I always expect that good years are just around the corner, so I may be wrong.

 

[Son of Butch]

We produce meat goats, but are respectfully requesting opinions/ideas from cattlemen for the following scenario:

Resources
1. 220 acres leased land ($40/acre). Land is rolling fields that have been "left go" for a number of years. Cedars, honey locust etc. beginning to encroach. Draws and gullies, but no established water. Old but serviceable perimeter fence. (serviceable for cattle, not goats)
2. 20 acres deeded land "across the road" with home. Perimeter fence and pond. Same terrain.
3. $40,000 cash
4. Experience in meat goat production. Minimal cattle experience beyond a bit of fooling with stockers on a small scale.
My experience lies in meat goats, and they will do well on this property after fencing is reconfigured to contain them. My interest in cattle is several-fold:
1. Goats thrive on brush, browse and weeds, and prefer to leave the grass when possible. Cattle could utilize grass.
2. Meat kid production produces cash flow once/year.
Cash flow could be improved by selling a product multiple times/year.

I love cattle, but am not interested in subsidizing them...they need to be profitable.

Stay focused on Meat Goats... and a few stockers.
Cow/calf will not improve cash flow, only one sale per year and will need facility investment for breeding.

Thinking outside the box.
Land for rent, no established water and no fences for goats.
You don't want to trap yourself into making costly investments on rented land.
Let him rent it to someone else if He can't provide a solution suitable to you both.
Otherwise:
Camels might be the solution... but research local demand for camel meat and milk before jumping on the idea.

 

[backhoeboogie]

It is not a bad lease price but I'd hate to see them go up or boot you if you start improving the place. Do you get a long term lease? Is the land capable? You could invest a lot of nickels on fencing that many acres. Fertilizer cost will likely be higher than your lease cost.

Is there a culvert under the road somewhere close? If so you could run a water hose under the road to a water trough.

Without seeing either place, all I can do is postulate. It could be heck yes or it could be heck no.

 

[MO-Ruminants]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I have read each and pondered. Feel free to expound further, and perhaps others will also share.

The lease is a 7-year, with an option to buy at any time. (predetermined price/acre) After 7 years, that predetermined price/acre is sure to rise.

Butch, your camel idea reminds me of something I heard a few years ago. In the Middle East, where domestic camels are common, they are transported by loading them on a flatbed trailer, commanding them to lie down, and running a ratchet strap over their hump. Apparently they are docile by nature and don't try to stand up. If it works for camels, surely it would work for Brahmans, who also have humps.

 

[farmerjan]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I have read each and pondered. Feel free to expound further, and perhaps others will also share.

The lease is a 7-year, with an option to buy at any time. (predetermined price/acre) After 7 years, that predetermined price/acre is sure to rise.

Butch, your camel idea reminds me of something I heard a few years ago. In the Middle East, where domestic camels are common, they are transported by loading them on a flatbed trailer, commanding them to lie down, and running a ratchet strap over their hump. Apparently they are docile by nature and don't try to stand up. If it works for camels, surely it would work for Brahmans, who also have humps.

LMAO :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Maybe CB can comment on the "docility" of the Brahman's...... That comment was priceless....

Is this acreage something you want to buy/are thinking of buying? If so, then the 7 year lease is a good idea, if you are wanting to add ground to your operation. But, I would rather try to buy it ASAP rather than lease, and do the improvements and make it so that you can run the goats on it as well as some cattle. I wouldn't want to make improvements, especially any amount of fence, without some sort of guarantee that it will be around down the road. And if it were to have to be sold due to death or something, your lease would probably have to be honored for at least a year but no guarantee that it would be good for 7... and that would depend on sale terms..... So the only way to be sure that what you put into it you will get the benefit from, is to own it. What about a lease/purchase....???

 

[Caustic Burno]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I have read each and pondered. Feel free to expound further, and perhaps others will also share.

The lease is a 7-year, with an option to buy at any time. (predetermined price/acre) After 7 years, that predetermined price/acre is sure to rise.

Butch, your camel idea reminds me of something I heard a few years ago. In the Middle East, where domestic camels are common, they are transported by loading them on a flatbed trailer, commanding them to lie down, and running a ratchet strap over their hump. Apparently they are docile by nature and don't try to stand up. If it works for camels, surely it would work for Brahmans, who also have humps.

LMAO :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Maybe CB can comment on the "docility" of the Brahman's...... That comment was priceless....

Is this acreage something you want to buy/are thinking of buying? If so, then the 7 year lease is a good idea, if you are wanting to add ground to your operation. But, I would rather try to buy it ASAP rather than lease, and do the improvements and make it so that you can run the goats on it as well as some cattle. I wouldn't want to make improvements, especially any amount of fence, without some sort of guarantee that it will be around down the road. And if it were to have to be sold due to death or something, your lease would probably have to be honored for at least a year but no guarantee that it would be good for 7... and that would depend on sale terms..... So the only way to be sure that what you put into it you will get the benefit from, is to own it. What about a lease/purchase....???

Whenever one of y'all decides to try and put a F-1 Tiger Brimmer girl on a flatbed trailer tied down with a ratchet strap , I need one week.
That should be enough time to set up an arena with EMT's get tickets printed and the concession stand stocked.
This has money maker written all over it.
I get to supply the Brimmer from the salt grass country down Bolivar or High Island way.

 

[BC]

Whenever one of y'all decides to try and put a F-1 Tiger Brimmer girl on a flatbed trailer tied down with a ratchet strap , I need one week.
That should be enough time to set up an arena with EMT's get tickets printed and the concession stand stocked.
This has money maker written all over it.
I get to supply the Brimmer from the salt grass country down Bolivar or High Island way.

CB, those salt grass cows are what I call swamp angels.

 

[Hunter]

How many head can you run on the 240 acres?
How much is the initial cost of facility improvements going to cost?
Is there enough land to produce hay and if so what will it cost to bale it if you don't have the equipment.

Conservatively, you should be able to get 30 head on it.
Can calves net you $350 a head?

If so, that is $10,500 but the cost to rent is $9,600. Doesn't leave much margin for error.

If you rent do you get the hunting rights and if so, could you sublease?

At least if you buy you get the interest deduction and money is going towards something that is yours that you get to choose what to do with it.

 

[MO-Ruminants]

Is this acreage something you want to buy/are thinking of buying? If so, then the 7 year lease is a good idea, if you are wanting to add ground to your operation. But, I would rather try to buy it ASAP rather than lease, and do the improvements and make it so that you can run the goats on it as well as some cattle. I wouldn't want to make improvements, especially any amount of fence, without some sort of guarantee that it will be around down the road. And if it were to have to be sold due to death or something, your lease would probably have to be honored for at least a year but no guarantee that it would be good for 7... and that would depend on sale terms..... So the only way to be sure that what you put into it you will get the benefit from, is to own it. What about a lease/purchase....???

Excellent thoughts. The lease is held by someone I know very well. (sometimes this can be good, sometimes bad)

I would much prefer to own the land. My thoughts were, instead of purchasing the land on a 20 year note now, building up a profitable livestock business on said land first. Any cash flow can be forwarded to livestock. Then, purchase the land later when cash from profits can pay a bigger down payment. If there is no cash from profits later, it will probably be good I did not purchase the land.

You are correct: There is always a risk that improvements and infrastructure costs will be wasted. We can certainly keep these investments as minimal as possible, but water and fence just make livestock production much more pleasant! Ponds cannot be moved and taken with. Perhaps certain types of fences can?

Note: The following comparison is not intended to "prove a point", just something to think on.

Annual lease cost/acre: $40
Annual interest/acre (of course over time, this would decrease as principal payments are made) $106

 

[MO-Ruminants]

How many head can you run on the 240 acres?
How much is the initial cost of facility improvements going to cost?
Is there enough land to produce hay and if so what will it cost to bale it if you don't have the equipment.

Conservatively, you should be able to get 30 head on it.
Can calves net you $350 a head?

If so, that is $10,500 but the cost to rent is $9,600. Doesn't leave much margin for error.

If you rent do you get the hunting rights and if so, could you sublease?

At least if you buy you get the interest deduction and money is going towards something that is yours that you get to choose what to do with it.

I believe you are on target at 30 head to start...perhaps more as the land improves.

Hunting rights are mine to sublet as I please.

You make an excellent point that, even if a note is needed on the purchase of the land, at least it will be mine.

Your rough financial projections for 30 head certainly do seem dismal. Realistic, but dismal. I believe I may still be of the mind to use meat goats as the centerpiece, with cattle as a supporting cast if possible.

Perhaps I will stock the goats in the back 200 acres, and keep the cattle out by the road. All of us have a bit of pride.