Calf with leg problems

[Spot & Bubby]

The normal navels would seem to rule out navel/joint ill. The bull theory seemed sound, but the joints being affected in the other two, separate sets, is more strongly supported by your selenium deficiency theory. Possibly not selenium, but something common to all 3 sets, or common to all/most of the affected calves. Was the weather/growing conditions for the pastures different from prior years? Possibility of a toxic plant that is normally present in low quantities being more available or available when vegetation normally available isn't? I'm thinking maybe something out of the ordinary that you wouldn't think would be connected such as, for example: A unusually large tent caterpillar population. Doesn't seem important, right? But, feeding on black cherry leaves in Kentucky. These caterpillars defecated on the forage below. The horses in Kentucky ate this grass. The caterpillar poop on the grass contained enough cyanide from the black cherry leaves to cause not death of the horses, but very high rates of spontaneous abortions and still births in pregnant mares. So much so that horse owners were taking their animals out of state without knowing the cause for the pregnancy problems. Many years ago now, but it took a long time before anyone figured it out.

most last year was the epidemic of red ants and termites (not the house kind). Nightshade, a common issue wasn't one.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Sometimes they may lay completely stretched out

Like a colt?

 

[Ky hills]

Like a colt?

Yes

 

[Silver]

Just to be clear, while joint ill likely enters through the navel it does not mean that the navel will show signs of infection. So a normal navel does not rule out joint ill.
If the infection settles in the navel it is usually very treatable with run of the mill antibiotics. Infection that sets up shop in the joints is a whole different story and isn't always treatable. A long course of high powered antibiotics will be required to have a chance at success treatment. At least that's my experience.
There seems to be some misconception that calves born with contracted tendons are the fault of the bull, and that's not necessarily true. Large calves may experience restricted movement in the uterus during late gestation, leading to tight tendons, so I guess a combination of high bw bull and/or small cow could be a root cause. I wouldn't call that a genetic. I've been told that excess protein and energy during the dam's last trimester, combined with inadequate mineral intake, can affect tendon and bone development as well. I don't worry about the condition very much, once the calf gets mobile they straighten up over time.

 

[Travlr]

To build on the discussion about infected navels.

The navel area will likely look swollen, it will feel hard like a core running up from the navel cord.

This is why people try to have their calving season while there is snow on the ground.

 

[Ky hills]

This is why people try to have their calving season while there is snow on the ground.

Could be for some. Yes mud and wet conditions can certainly affect and increase the probability, but here there is likely not to be snow on the ground generally for any long length of time. An average winter will yield two maybe 3 measurable snows that are likely to be gone within 1-3 days. There can be longer cold fronts with heavier snow amounts that keep snow on for 2-3 weeks at a time but not every year. There can also be a very rare winter where little to no measurable snow falls.
Most of our winter precipitation is rain which makes for mud and lots of it.
Around here most people start calving in late February-March, when the likelihood of significant snow is decreased, some calve in or through April
The consensus is to avoid the extremes calving in December-January and through mid February are more problematic as is later in May-August for other reasons, heat and flies.
I would say most calves around here are born either in March or September.
Infected navels can happen during any time under the right or I reckon wrong conditions.
Being born in a clean dry sanitary pasture is in my mind the best conditions.
I've found that oftentimes calves born up in a barn or brought to the barn shortly after birth due to cold snow or rain conditions can increase the likelihood of navel infections. I always iodine navels of barn calves as soon as possible, and like go get them out of the barn as soon as possible too.
I believe flies can cause problems to.
Another thing that I believe can lead to infection that can happen is if the navel cord breaks off too close to the body at birth or if the cow licks it too vigorously and it tears off to close it leaves an opening for germs and or flies to cause trouble.
It's just something that has to be watched for in young calves in the same sense of watching for signs of scouring or other common ills at affect calves.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Yes

I'll bet we have 2 dozen calves that lie like that this year... across at least two sets. They freak me out because they look dead or dying. I even made a little video to post on tiktok about it. I just uploaded it to youtube to share here.



I recall one bull calf doing that last season.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

we are working calves this weekend. Should we be checking for and prepared to treat it while we have them on the table?

 

[Ky hills]

I'll bet we have 2 dozen calves that lie like that this year... across at least two sets. They freak me out because they look dead or dying. I even made a little video to post on tiktok about it. I just uploaded it to youtube to share here.



I recall one bull calf doing that last season.

Yes, they will fairly often lay out like that and most time are perfectly healthy. It's always kind of scary to see it and a real relief when they move.
Last fall, found a calf laying stretched out like that and once found out he was still alive figured he was fine but then saw a hind leg kick out he got up and still kicked at his middle and layed back down and sprawled out again and realized he had an issue. Sure enough it was an infected navel.

 

[Ky hills]

we are working calves this weekend. Should we be checking for and prepared to treat it while we have them on the table?

How old are the calves? My thinking is if they are over a month old and not showing any signs of discomfort or swelling you're probably in the clear.
I find it most often within the first few days after being born to maybe a week or two.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Yes, they will fairly often lay out like that and most time are perfectly healthy. It's always kind of scary to see it and a real relief when they move.
Last fall, found a calf laying stretched out like that and once found out he was still alive figured he was fine but then saw a hind leg kick out he got up and still kicked at his middle and layed back down and sprawled out again and realized he had an issue. Sure enough it was an infected navel.

We have a bull calf who will lie down, all stretched-out like that, 3-4 feet from the water trough, roll his OPEN eyes back in his head, and flop his tongue out on the dirt. I almost have to step on him before he moves. I'll watch for the kicking.

How old are the calves? My thinking is if they are over a month old and not showing any signs of discomfort or swelling you're probably in the clear.
I find it most often within the first few days after being born to maybe a week or two.

By the calendar, our 60 day calving window closed two days ago. So, up to two months, but most side sleepers are on the older side.

Here's a look at legs and navels...

 

[TCRanch]

@Spot & Bubby, guess I'm lucky I've never had older calves walking like that with both front knees looking wonky. What does your vet say? Assuming there's been a physical exam, possibly blood tests, etc.

The "dead calf" thing? Always. Even with retained heifers, cows, bulls. Gets your adrenaline pumping!!!

 

[Ky hills]

We have a bull calf who will lie down, all stretched-out like that, 3-4 feet from the water trough, roll his OPEN eyes back in his head, and flop his tongue out on the dirt. I almost have to step on him before he moves. I'll watch for the kicking.

By the calendar, our 60 day calving window closed two days ago. So, up to two months, but most side sleepers are on the older side.

Here's a look at legs and navels...

Last year we had a few heifers to have calves by their sire. Some were fine and a couple were not. One was born with its front legs literally backwards is the best way I can describe it and one leg was actually bowed out side ways,
Another calf was kind of like what your video showed. That calf eventually grew out of it enough that it was barely noticeable at all by weaning time.
This year the first mentioned cow had a calf by the same bull before we got him sold and that calf is as far as I can tell physically ok, but slow not in movement but in other ways.
The other cow had a calf by a different unrelated bull and her calf is perfectly fine this year.
This is the last years calf that pretty much grew out of it The second picture is when he was a day old you can see him standing odd with his front legs.
The first picture he is a little older

 

[Ky hills]

Calf update: He is doing much better. He is getting up and moving around a lot more. He can keep ahead of us now, would have to run to get ahead of him at this point. Starting to eat some feed. The swelling in his knees looks to be gone down and he is standing with his legs straight.
On a side note, we are going to go look at two more calves as Maybell is milking heavy and I'm having to milk her out after the 2 calves nurse. I'm going to be extra careful in looking these calves over, and hoping that's good enough.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Calf update: He is doing much better. He is getting up and moving around a lot more. He can keep ahead of us now, would have to run to get ahead of him at this point. Starting to eat some feed. The swelling in his knees looks to be gone down and he is standing with his legs straight.
On a side note, we are going to go look at two more calves as Maybell is milking heavy and I'm having to milk her out after the 2 calves nurse. I'm going to be extra careful in looking these calves over, and hoping that's good enough.

Can't wait to see what you get. Until then get to makin' cheese!

 

[Ky hills]

Well so far so good, we got a 12 day old Simmental cross bull calf, big framed calf.
He was easy to get transitioned to nursing Maybell tonight.
Stout, vigorous nursing calf.

 

[wbvs58]

He looks the go.

Ken

 

[MurraysMutts]

That'll slow down the leftovers!

 

[Ky hills]

Another new addition today. A 4 week old Shorthorn cross heifer.
@MurraysMutts i think the 3 would have slowed down the leftovers pretty good, 4 definitely did. They gonna have to get onto more feed pretty quick.
She's raised 4 before so she can do it with help from feed.
The thing is we got $2500 in 3 calves, Hoping the market holds up a while.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Another new addition today. A 4 week old Shorthorn cross heifer.
@MurraysMutts i think the 3 would have slowed down the leftovers pretty good, 4 definitely did. They gonna have to get onto more feed pretty quick.
She's raised 4 before so she can do it with help from feed.
The thing is we got $2500 in 3 calves, Hoping the market holds up a while.
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Best cow on the place!!
They sure ain't giving the babies away around here either. Lots of variables. But good quality bottle calves are 600 to 1100 dollars.
They'll make money tho....
Some more than others

Edited to add.
I'm glad I got mine when I did. Iirc, I'm about 650 each into mine.