Calf with leg problems

[wbvs58]

I don't know much about this other than pennicillin is bacteriocidal affecting the cell wall of the bacteria and that tetracyclines are bacteriostatic ie it slows down their rate of reproduction so you need a good immune system to deal with the bacteria but this is all a long time ago for me so could be wrong and modern thinking changes things.

Ken

 

[Double R Ranch]

I had a holstein bottle calf some years ago that had similar knee's and symptoms. It did turn out to be joint ill in that case but not from the umbilical. It got an infection where the dairy had given him a metal tag in his ear. Apparently that infection traveled to the joints. Took a lot to get them cleared up but did end up getting the calf over both the infection of the ear and the joint ill. Made good money on him in the long run but even the vet wasn't sure he'd be able to kick the infection. First time I've seen knee's flushed on a calf.
In the case of your calf it looks more like tendons to me. Glad it's improving. Sounds like you got it on the right track. Keep us posted!

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Pardon me... What's joint ill?

 

[TCRanch]

Pardon me... What's joint ill?

Pretty much what @Double R Ranch described. Navel ill that isn't caught early and the infection goes systemic, usually settling in the joints. I've only had one calf with navel ill and it cleared up with 2 rounds of Resflor Gold. My only other similar situation was a calf with a snake bite and swollen knee. Per my vet, treatment was Nuflor & Dex day 1, Dex day 2 & 3, Nuflor & Dex day 4, Dex day 5 & 6, Draxxin day 7. Full recovery!

 

[farmerjan]

I also like to use Nuflor on some things. I have found that I try to hold Draxxin "in reserve" because it is strong and not always needed right off the bat or at all. It is the go to for use in the dart gun though. I have gone back to using penicillin more often, for some things, as it gives good results and has been very effective, and it is not near as expensive to use Knock on wood, we don't have to use alot of drugs thankfully.

 

[Ky hills]

I also like to use Nuflor on some things. I have found that I try to hold Draxxin "in reserve" because it is strong and not always needed right off the bat or at all. It is the go to for use in the dart gun though. I have gone back to using penicillin more often, for some things, as it gives good results and has been very effective, and it is not near as expensive to use Knock on wood, we don't have to use alot of drugs thankfully.

That is kind of how I do too. We try to to keep Draxxin and Nuflor both on hand, and and generally speaking for calves I prefer Nuflor, but if using a dart Draxxin is the choice. Draxxin is what we had on hand and used it to treat the calf with.
Our vet explained several years ago, that the two are both good but work different. He said Nuflor goes to work faster, but doesn't last as long in their system. Draxxin is slower to take effect but also lasts longer.

 

[Silver]

According to a Google search, which lines up with what Ken said:

Penicillin and tetracycline have different mechanisms of action, which can sometimes lead to interactions. Penicillin is bactericidal, meaning it kills bacteria by targeting their cell walls, while tetracycline is bacteriostatic, inhibiting bacterial reproduction by interfering with protein synthesis.

In theory, tetracycline's bacteriostatic effect could reduce the effectiveness of penicillin, as penicillin works best on actively growing bacteria. However, studies suggest that this interaction is not always clinically significant, and the two can sometimes be used together safely depending on the specific infection and medical context

 

[PSMCL]

Ken or Lucky P can correct me but it is my understanding that Pen and Tetracycline cancel each other's efficacy.

Penicillin is bactericidal and the tetracyclines are bacteriostatic.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Pretty much what @Double R Ranch described. Navel ill that isn't caught early and the infection goes systemic, usually settling in the joints. I've only had one calf with navel ill and it cleared up with 2 rounds of Resflor Gold. My only other similar situation was a calf with a snake bite and swollen knee. Per my vet, treatment was Nuflor & Dex day 1, Dex day 2 & 3, Nuflor & Dex day 4, Dex day 5 & 6, Draxxin day 7. Full recovery!

Are they born with it? Or does it occur after birth? Contagious?

More than two of calves were born with at least one leg like this.

 

[Silver]

Pretty much what @Double R Ranch described. Navel ill that isn't caught early and the infection goes systemic, usually settling in the joints. I've only had one calf with navel ill and it cleared up with 2 rounds of Resflor Gold. My only other similar situation was a calf with a snake bite and swollen knee. Per my vet, treatment was Nuflor & Dex day 1, Dex day 2 & 3, Nuflor & Dex day 4, Dex day 5 & 6, Draxxin day 7. Full recovery!

Do you remember what the dosage was for the Dex, and if was Dex2 or Dex5?

 

[farmerjan]

According to a Google search, which lines up with what Ken said:

Penicillin and tetracycline have different mechanisms of action, which can sometimes lead to interactions. Penicillin is bactericidal, meaning it kills bacteria by targeting their cell walls, while tetracycline is bacteriostatic, inhibiting bacterial reproduction by interfering with protein synthesis.

In theory, tetracycline's bacteriostatic effect could reduce the effectiveness of penicillin, as penicillin works best on actively growing bacteria. However, studies suggest that this interaction is not always clinically significant, and the two can sometimes be used together safely depending on the specific infection and medical context

Thank you and @wbvs58 ... I have always felt the penicillin seems to hit it faster... and the oxytet seems to be a "backup"....... but when @gcreekrch said that, and since I am not wanting to give someone false "advice" that is why I put the disclaimer that I am not a vet... but that is what we have done...and would ask that the post be taken down... and that was on the advice of a vet quite a few years ago....

 

[TCRanch]

Do you remember what the dosage was for the Dex, and if was Dex2 or Dex5?

5cc, 2mg Dexasone, produced by aspen.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Are they born with it? Or does it occur after birth? Contagious?

More than two of calves were born with at least one leg like this.

Joint ill (Navel ill)

www.thecattlesite.com

Link shows the definition, but the name describes the condition. However, if the calves were born with the joints having issues, and more than one, I'd consider a different bull. Being born with the issue indicates congenital issues, and not an infection. The joint ill/navel ill develops after birth.

 

[TCRanch]

Are they born with it? Or does it occur after birth? Contagious?

More than two of calves were born with at least one leg like this.

No, not born with it but generally happens at birth when the umbilical cord is wet. Pathogens enter the blood stream via the umbilical cord and can subsequently spread if not caught/treated early.

This is what the navel looked like on my calf. Hard, hot and swollen.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

No, not born with it but generally happens at birth when the umbilical cord is wet. Pathogens enter the blood stream via the umbilical cord and can subsequently spread if not caught/treated early.


This is what the navel looked like on my calf. Hard, hot and swollen.

Our calves with joint issues have normal looking navels.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

Joint ill (Navel ill)

www.thecattlesite.com

Link shows the definition, but the name describes the condition. However, if the calves were born with the joints having issues, and more than one, I'd consider a different bull. Being born with the issue indicates congenital issues, and not an infection. The joint ill/navel ill develops after birth.

The bull is already gone for throwing color in the set with multiple cases of joint issues. There's one case in each of the other two sets. One with one leg affected and one with both legs affected. My theory was selenium deficiency for all.

 

[DLD]

Just wanted to add, be careful with the muti-min. It's good stuff and sometimes works wonders for these kind of problems, but too much is very hard on the kidneys. And too much comes quick for these little ones. I'd be really cautious using Bo-Se or Mu-Se on top of it for the same reasons.

 

[Ky hills]

To build on the discussion about infected navels. As I said in an earlier post, if caught early LA 300 or LA 200 has worked well for our outfit.
There are several tell tale signs that young calf may have an infected navel.
They may lay around more than usual.
Sometimes they may lay completely stretched out and may even see them kicking out in discomfort with a hind leg.
When standing they may switch their tails Or hold the tail kind of cupped under and stand humpbacked.
Calf will likely go off milk and cow with a full udder or not nursed down like usual can also be a sign that something is going on with the calf.
Kicking up at their side with hind legs or reaching around licking at their sides is pretty good indicator.
The navel area will likely look swollen, it will feel hard like a core running up from the navel cord.

 

[TCRanch]

Just wanted to add, be careful with the muti-min. It's good stuff and sometimes works wonders for these kind of problems, but too much is very hard on the kidneys. And too much comes quick for these little ones. I'd be really cautious using Bo-Se or Mu-Se on top of it for the same reasons.

Good point! We're not selenium deficient so Be-Se is not recommended by our vet. Falls under the category of possibly too much of a good thing.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

The bull is already gone for throwing color in the set with multiple cases of joint issues. There's one case in each of the other two sets. One with one leg affected and one with both legs affected. My theory was selenium deficiency for all.

The normal navels would seem to rule out navel/joint ill. The bull theory seemed sound, but the joints being affected in the other two, separate sets, is more strongly supported by your selenium deficiency theory. Possibly not selenium, but something common to all 3 sets, or common to all/most of the affected calves. Was the weather/growing conditions for the pastures different from prior years? Possibility of a toxic plant that is normally present in low quantities being more available or available when vegetation normally available isn't? I'm thinking maybe something out of the ordinary that you wouldn't think would be connected such as, for example: A unusually large tent caterpillar population. Doesn't seem important, right? But, feeding on black cherry leaves in Kentucky. These caterpillars defecated on the forage below. The horses in Kentucky ate this grass. The caterpillar poop on the grass contained enough cyanide from the black cherry leaves to cause not death of the horses, but very high rates of spontaneous abortions and still births in pregnant mares. So much so that horse owners were taking their animals out of state without knowing the cause for the pregnancy problems. Many years ago now, but it took a long time before anyone figured it out.