Calf vigor.

[Lucky_P]

Calf survivability in adverse conditions.... look at dam's level of nutrition, particularly in the last trimester. Inadequate dietary protein intake will result in calves that have difficulty generating body heat, getting on their feet, and nursing. Add to that, colostrum quality may be adversely impacted.

That said, Sire may have some effect...
@KyHills - I hear you on those PrimeTime calves - we used him heavy for a couple of years when we were on the 'need to make 'em smaller' kick (he was a 4.0 frame bull). Those little suckers would jump up and run a mile away if you spooked 'em. I had one that ran through 4 fences, 3 adjacent properties, crossed a paved road; another ran the length of the farm and bailed into a flood-swollen creek - and when my wife got him out and we released him to his dam, he ran the length of the farm, a mile in the other direction and bedded down right at the top of the creekbank - we just left him alone then..
We decided that unless they were still wet and had not gotten to their feet, we would go out of our way to avoid any excitement, and just tag them after they'd had 48 hrs or so to 'bond with mama'.
@GoWyo - I loved my Gardens Wave daughters. Mine were not as ugly as the N Bar Prime Times - those were so ugly that you couldn't hardly stand to look at them until they got to be about 5-6 yrs old... But the Waves were nice little cows with good dispositions (I was worried when his initial DOC score came out at -23!, after I'd already used a cane of semen) Never saw carcass data on any of their calves, but with his combination of high marbling, high ribeye and high positive $EN... I felt like they were probably capable of producing some of the best steers in the herd... but they mostly dropped heifers (sired by either Shorthorn or Braunvieh bulls), all of which stayed in the herd.

 

[Travlr]

In investment terms, the bull is more important for the whole herd. The cow is more valuable when looking at individual calves (but only slightly).

Just to throw an alternative opinion out there... I'd rather have forty great cows and an adequate bull than have forty adequate cows and a great bull. If the bull isn't working he's a lot easier to replace than forty cows. I get the idea that the bull is important due to his genetic influence on forty calves... but consistency in the entire crop comes from consistent cows.

 

[HatCreekCattleco]

Und

Just to throw an alternative opinion out there... I'd rather have forty great cows and an adequate bull than have forty adequate cows and a great bull. If the bull isn't working he's a lot easier to replace than forty cows. I get the idea that the bull is important due to his genetic influence on forty calves... but consistency in the entire crop comes from consistent cows.

Understood. But if you are honest with yourself, it's easy to look around a find a bull who can upgrade your herd every time you need to replace the old one. A good bull is not that expensive if he's really good and holds up.

 

[Ky hills]

They have value, but you are absolutely correct that there are many factors that play a part. Producers get into trouble when they look at a single EPD value and consider it a 'silver bullet'. Trust them, but they aren't your savior either.

My issues with EPD's are that so many people tend to take them for gospel truth and use them as the only selection criteria. Totally ignoring feet and legs, other structural soundness issues, along with fertility and many other areas. The only EPD's that I put any sort of credibility on are BW, and CED, and that's only on proven bulls. The other numbers are just too vague and takes so long to build up any pattern of performance in a given area.
I think it's become a way of marketing that takes focus away from the actual visible selection that cattlemen used to be proficient at.
I agree the single trait selection is problematic as when you go to extremes in one area other areas are affected and many times adversely.

 

[tex452]

This calf hit the ground running, and was very active from day one, we bought her as an open but she was bred to a Brahman bull.
It's a well built calf and growing like crazy, the only problem is it's Brahman and will get docked.

 

[Logan52]

I have raised BF cross market lambs (basically Suffolk X Hampshire) for several years. I have to lamb them in the barn in pens to save the lambs, for they will chill when the weather in January or February is bad. They require close attention or you will lose a lot of them.
Katahdin or Dorper lambs just seem to bounce when they hit the ground, and are nursing within a very short time, even when it is cold. Even a cross between the two types of sheep produces a much more vigorous and hardy lamb, so the male does make a difference.
I have not noticed such a pronounced difference in hardiness in calves of different beef breeds.
BF cross lambs have been barn raised and babied for many, many generations. Did they lose their natural hardiness?
The same thing may being going on with some of the dairy breeds of cattle, where generations of barn raising lead to less vigorous calves. Jerseys?
With attention to it, I feel genetics could make a difference in the hardiness and survivability of calves.

 

[HatCreekCattleco]

With attention to it, I feel genetics could make a difference in the hardiness and survivability of calves.

I believe you are right. I also believe that is something that could really help profitability. I understand easier birthed calves do better, but I'm looking for that extra spunk on top of calving ease. I think it's something to be looking at. On the other hand I'm not comparing the bulls on a breed basis, I'm taking about comparing the bull's calves as an individual.

 

[BFE]

They have value, but you are absolutely correct that there are many factors that play a part. Producers get into trouble when they look at a single EPD value and consider it a 'silver bullet'. Trust them, but they aren't your savior either.

I believe in sourcing bulls with a long pedigree of animals that are adapted to my specific conditions. My current bull is from a 40 year herd with little outside influence in the heart of the fescue belt. The outside genetics they do bring in have to meet their requirements on breeding percentages in a 45 day breeding cycle. If the outside bulls heifers don't match the home raised ones they don't get used again.

 

[Ebenezer]

The bull will absolutely either help or hurt calf vigor. I just AIed most heifers this year to just such a bull. He has done a great job in the past. Size of calf does not play a part here. On the other end, there are bulls that will sire mortality at birth in no-problem calves in heifers but not in cows. That was documented decades ago. Those need to be bred to mature cows only.

Same for sheep. I note lamb vigor or not if I see it. It was easier years ago with less sheep but now it really makes raising hair sheep as a hands free until weaning operation possible. You either do the culling and selecting or you pay the price.