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Calf from a polled bull growing horns?

ufo_chris

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I have a calf (actually 2,Twins,but one is with Mom,one is a bottlecalf) . His Dad is a polled Angus,Mom is Highland. He is 3 month old and it feels like he's going to have horns.
I've never felt a polled head,can you still feel the buds?
These feel like they are going to break through anytime (the fur is starting to change in those spots)
I think I read somewhere a long time ago that it's only like a 95 or 99 % chance of getting a polled calf.
Is that right?
Have not felt the other one ,it's too wild and I don't wanna stress it just to see.
Thanks,
Chris
 

dun

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You won;t feel buds on a polled calf. Could possibly be scurs but he's pretty young for them to show up much yet. The "angus" bull is obviously not homozygous polled (2 polled genes) but is heterozygous (1 polled 1 horned). If this is a registered angus bull he shouldn't be. Angus carry 2 polled genes. A Red Angus bull could possibly carry 1 of each if he was bred up (not category 1A).
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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dun":3r05wax0 said:
You won;t feel buds on a polled calf. Could possibly be scurs but he's pretty young for them to show up much yet. The "angus" bull is obviously not homozygous polled (2 polled genes) but is heterozygous (1 polled 1 horned). If this is a registered angus bull he shouldn't be. Angus carry 2 polled genes. A Red Angus bull could possibly carry 1 of each if he was bred up (not category 1A).


Dang right. If he was a pure angus bull (daddy) that calf would be as smooth as a baby's bottom on the poll. If he has buds that bull (his daddy) aint angus.
 

denoginnizer

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dun":mk6bq2xr said:
You won;t feel buds on a polled calf. Could possibly be scurs but he's pretty young for them to show up much yet. The "angus" bull is obviously not homozygous polled (2 polled genes) but is heterozygous (1 polled 1 horned). If this is a registered angus bull he shouldn't be. Angus carry 2 polled genes. A Red Angus bull could possibly carry 1 of each if he was bred up (not category 1A).
If an registered black angus bull is sold to you by a reputable breeder should he take the bull back and refund your money if the calves have horns? What is an equitable solution?
 

ufo_chris

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Wow, thanks Guys!
This was my friend's registered black angus bull! ( we borrowed him)
They got him of his cousin! I'm gonna have to break the news to him.
Could he have red angus in him and that's why. I'm not familiar with the angus registry,are the black and red seperate, no mixing allowed to register?
That's gonna look funny ,black Angus with Highland horns!
No, I have the vet comming next month to dehorn my yearling so he'll have a couple more to do :(
 

dun

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ufo_chris":j6nr92w6 said:
Wow, thanks Guys!
This was my friend's registered black angus bull! ( we borrowed him)
They got him of his cousin! I'm gonna have to break the news to him.
Could he have red angus in him and that's why. I'm not familiar with the angus registry,are the black and red seperate, no mixing allowed to register?
That's gonna look funny ,black Angus with Highland horns!
No, I have the vet comming next month to dehorn my yearling so he'll have a couple more to do :(
A registeered black angus cannot be bred up. Has to be 100% angus.
I persoanallythink that if the bull is registered and he has the papers on him he was hoodwinked. Bull needs to be reported to the angus associaiton as not being homozygous polled. I would talk to the breeder of the bull first and see what the deal is
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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dun":2hq836tl said:
ufo_chris":2hq836tl said:
Wow, thanks Guys!
This was my friend's registered black angus bull! ( we borrowed him)
They got him of his cousin! I'm gonna have to break the news to him.
Could he have red angus in him and that's why. I'm not familiar with the angus registry,are the black and red seperate, no mixing allowed to register?
That's gonna look funny ,black Angus with Highland horns!
No, I have the vet comming next month to dehorn my yearling so he'll have a couple more to do :(
A registeered black angus cannot be bred up. Has to be 100% angus.
I persoanallythink that if the bull is registered and he has the papers on him he was hoodwinked. Bull needs to be reported to the angus associaiton as not being homozygous polled. I would talk to the breeder of the bull first and see what the deal is


I have to agree. The AAA will be none to happy with an Angus bull throwing horns.
 

Lucky_P

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Out of a Highland cow, those are probably scurs that you're feeling(or imagining that you feel) IF indeed this calf was sired by an Angus bull - they're ALL homozygous polled.
The scur gene is inherited separately from the horn/polled gene - and can slide along undetected for generations until you start breeding the horns off. A homozygous polled animal can still have scurs - though most commonly, the presence of scurs *suggests* that the animal may be heterozygous polled ( as would be the case for this AngusXHighland calf)

In all likelihood, the (horned) Highland cow has one or more copies of the scur gene, and this bull calf inherited one from her; male calves only have to have one copy of the scur gene to express scur growth, heifers have to inherit two(one from each parent) in order to have scurs.
Expression is variable, from tiny little 'scab' scurs that you have to part the hair to see, to big honking things that look like full-grown horns - except that they are loosely attached to the skull, with no bony core.

Unless the sire of this calf has scurs, he's not the source.
There have been(and probably still are) occasional registered Angus bulls with scurs. 'Shah', AAA 1158, born in 1872, is one Angus bull that I've seen mentioned from time to time as having - and siring - scurs.

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/an_sci/extensi ... g96-3.html
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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ufo_chris":1acfpk3j said:
Wow, thanks Guys!
This was my friend's registered black angus bull! ( we borrowed him)
They got him of his cousin! I'm gonna have to break the news to him.
Could he have red angus in him and that's why. I'm not familiar with the angus registry,are the black and red seperate, no mixing allowed to register?
That's gonna look funny ,black Angus with Highland horns!
No, I have the vet comming next month to dehorn my yearling so he'll have a couple more to do :(


No, angus whether red or black should be homozygous polled. Meaning it is genetically impossible for their off spring to have horns. If it has horns it aint angus.
 

djinwa

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If they were horn buds, you wouldn't just be "feeling" them at 3 months. They'd be popping within the first month. I agree, sounds like scurs - bull is okay.

The bull I used is some kind of percentage lowline angus, which I didnt understand as a newbie - I expected no horns. But first calf had them (cow half Jersey). I got to inform the bull owner that his bull was heterozygous polled. He'd only used him on angus cows, so wouldn't know. Kind of put a damper on his excitement about the guy.
 

Nesikep

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we had a shorthorn bull last year and this years calves all but one were polled, the one that wasn't only developed horn buds at 5 months old.. since he was tame I just put some dehorning paste on them... it is possible that there were scurs though
 

QueenSidhe

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Polled vs. Non-Polled (horned) cattle all depends upon their genetics.

1. If you have a polled and you breed to a polled you will get a polled.
2. If you have a polled and you breed to a non-polled (horned), you will get a polled.
3. However, if you then breed a cow with the genes mentioned in # 2, you will then get a non-polled (horned) calf.

Everyone once in a while you will get a "throw back" where you will get a non-polled (horned) calf, though that doesn't happen very often.
 

dun

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QueenSidhe":1a00degd said:
Polled vs. Non-Polled (horned) cattle all depends upon their genetics.

1. If you have a polled and you breed to a polled you will get a polled.
2. If you have a polled and you breed to a non-polled (horned), you will get a polled.
3. However, if you then breed a cow with the genes mentioned in # 2, you will then get a non-polled (horned) calf.

Everyone once in a while you will get a "throw back" where you will get a non-polled (horned) calf, though that doesn't happen very often.

1&2 would be correct if the animals are homozygous polled. Since polled is dominant over horned, if the anaimls only carry a single polled gene and a single horned gene (heterozygous polled) if they both pass the horned gene the offspring will be horned.
 

ufo_chris

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So if it's just scurs ,would that be ok from a registered balck angus?
How can you tell if it's horns or scurs?
They are about 1/2" now and seem to wiggle a bit. Would real horns do that?
Thanks,Chris
 

Workinonit Farm

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ufo_chris":cssg8b5p said:
seem to wiggle a bit. Would real horns do that?

No. 'Real' horns will not wiggle, they are growing out of/from the skull. Scurs develop separate from the skull.

Katherine
 

Nesikep

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in my experience I've found real horns wiggle until they're about 1-2" long, then there's enough bone there to keep it rigid, that's my two cents, however, since we used dehorning paste if we feel anything , we never know if they're scurs or not, we just don't like the surprises
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Lucky_P - you gave an EXCELLENT description of Scurs. And, Dun is correct. Polled bred to Polled can have a horned calf. You have to know if they are Hetero or Homozygous Polled. Horns are pretty simple - scurs are complicated.
 

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