Calculators and Cattle Feed

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Our cattle would - and did - eat the heck out of common ragweed - and in 2007, that's about all they had to eat. But giant ragweed, and lanceleaf ragweed... they wouldn't touch.
 
Mark Reynolds said:
@Warren Allison, since you have seen that too (although you are in NW Georgia) are you familiar with the phrase "At least it's better than snowballs!"? And what do you think of that phrase?

I know what you are saying about the trash weed and the cow going to it first. Here it does depend on the weed in terms of preference, and maturity stage. Cattle won't touch ironweed up her, in spite of the protein. Ragweed depends on the stage. I wasn't down there long enough to get to know the weeds that well. What about Sycle pod down there where you are, or is that one toxic?
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I have never heard of Sycle pod, Mark. I will have to look for a pic on the web to see if it is something we have around here. And I think that phrase is stupid, but unfortunately, way too many people are ignorant enough to believe it. Ignorance is not stupid, Ignorant means lack of knowledge. Someone with a PHD in Physics is by no mean stupid. They are in fact highly intelligent. but they may be ignorant in the area of microbiology or behavioral psychology, for instance.
 
Lucky_P said:
Sicklepod - Senna (formerly Cassia) obtusifolia, aka Coffeeweed, Coffee senna, etc. is toxic to cattle... causes muscle, liver, kidney damage, and can be lethal, if ingested in sufficient amounts.
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Thanks @Lucky_P! Now I know. Well, we don't want the cows eating it then. I also have a better idea why it wasn't cared for and was called a weed, despite being a legume. I know/ was exposed to it being called coffeweed while down there. I figured (but might be wrong) that you had it where you are @Warren Allison.
 
chevytaHOE5674 said:
Um the co-op is 200 miles away ain't no way they are coming here to spread. That is the cost to hire a semi to haul it to the farm 47-50 a ton just in the trucking not including the actual fertilizer. That is if/when you can find a trucker willing to haul UP here.
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ok. I was wondering that. You gave a charge per acre for hauling. It kinda appears you meant a charge per ton for hauling, which makes more sense.
 
chevytaHOE5674 said:
Leaving hay standing in the field leaves a mess the following season. Often requiring at least one pass with a brush hog. Brush hogging is costly with no revenue.

Many fields around here are "leased" ground that the payment is cut it to keep the fields from growing trees and an Ag tax exemption. Leave it standing and chances are someone else will swoop in and take the field away from you because the owner wants to keep it cut and their tax exemption.

I'm not in a situation that I need to sell hay to make the mortgage. But some of you guys forget that places in the world exist where people do need that to make the payments, and there is no such thing as $17 squares and $100 round bales there. You talk about "marketing your product" that only works if there's potential customers. And places like here those things are pipe dreams. This is the land of $500/acre fields and poverty, no matter how much better quality your hay is there is nobody to buy it. And between here and a population center with big money is thousands of acres of prime wisconsin dairy land and all the hay a guy could want, so selling my hay there is a tough sell with the cost of trucking.
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True enough that there could be a mess in the field the following season. There are many different ways the "hay or not to hay" scenario can/could go and there are different ways that parties involved could lose or could make revenue, both in the short term and in the long term. i don't like to see anyone lose revenue at all. Ultimately, if nutrient levels aren't maintained within the field or are 'mined', the land 'loses', production is lost/ceases, and everyone who depends on that land as a resource for production has lost that resource, at least until someone 'invests' in it.

If you leave the hay/grass standing and do not take it off, the land loses nothing and forage production can resume at the potential which is the same as the prior year. I comprehend the mess standing dead year old unharvested hay makes, but the nutrients are still there. What action is going to cost who more? Removing the nutrients in the form of hay and not replacing them? Brush hogging the land and leaving the hay (nutrients) in place? Will it cost the owner? the harvester/user? Or will the land lose?
 
gcreekrch said:
Have you ever been in business for yourself?
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Never have had the desire and don't think I ever will have.

Other than I grew pumpkins and strawberries as a kid, collected and sold black walnuts about 30 years ago, have gathered aluminum cans once in awhile and a yard sale or 2. 🙃
 
Mark Reynolds said:
Never have had the desire and don't think I ever will have.
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It would be interesting to see how many of the practices you are preaching would still be in use in five years if you ever did. Ranching is still for the most part an unforgiving business if management makes the wrong calls. Costs need to be weighed very carefully for the benefits or lack of before making decisions.
The best way to make a profit on a cow is to spend as little as you have to on her….. Yes, we spend money for mineral, vet supplies, feed etc but those of us who have been in business a long time have found out what works best for our operations.
I am thinking Chevy has the mix figured quite well for his operation and I am betting he is making money doing it.
We do use feed analysis to best determine where money needs spent or doesn't. Unlike Chevy, our feed costs are considerably higher and while we have never been short of hay, we have had too many cows most years. 😂 We feel supplementing with pea screenings pellets for most of the winter and then using alfalfa to bump up protein levels pays. We wouldn't be doing so otherwise.
While our early cut meadows can push or exceed 13% it is only a couple weeks to get that off and our grass starts losing 1/4 to 1/2 % per day after maturity. The worst we have ever fed was 6% and that kind of hay is used on cold days and inclement weather days during calving as bedding and extra lignite to keep them warm.
The worst thing ranchers can hear is "I'm from the government and want to help". 🤓 You may not be one of those but many of your suggestions have too much cost over benefit to be useful.
 
Mark Reynolds said:
Thanks @Lucky_P! Now I know. Well, we don't want the cows eating it then. I also have a better idea why it wasn't cared for and was called a weed, despite being a legume. I know/ was exposed to it being called coffeweed while down there. I figured (but might be wrong) that you had it where you are @Warren Allison.
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I don't recall ever seeing this plant, either up here or down at the south GA place. If we have it or have had it, it didn't bother cows. Maybe they didn't eat it, or maybe for some reason it didn't affect them if they did eat it, or might have blamed its effects on something else. Then again, I have lived nearly 7 decades with every pasture up here being fescue, and a lot of the hay here is fescue. Have always brought south Ga, south Ala and Fla cattle up here, and kept them on fescue, and never have I ever seen or heard tell of cattle being affected by it, til I joined CT. Only warning I ever heard about fescue was concerning pregnant mares. I am going to send that link that @Lucky_P posted to Scott, and ask him if he knows if they have any around there.
 
gcreekrch said:
It would be interesting to see how many of the practices you are preaching would still be in use in five years if you ever did. Ranching is still for the most part an unforgiving business if management makes the wrong calls. Costs need to be weighed very carefully for the benefits or lack of before making decisions.
The best way to make a profit on a cow is to spend as little as you have to on her….. Yes, we spend money for mineral, vet supplies, feed etc but those of us who have been in business a long time have found out what works best for our operations.
I am thinking Chevy has the mix figured quite well for his operation and I am betting he is making money doing it.
We do use feed analysis to best determine where money needs spent or doesn't. Unlike Chevy, our feed costs are considerably higher and while we have never been short of hay, we have had too many cows most years. 😂 We feel supplementing with pea screenings pellets for most of the winter and then using alfalfa to bump up protein levels pays. We wouldn't be doing so otherwise.
While our early cut meadows can push or exceed 13% it is only a couple weeks to get that off and our grass starts losing 1/4 to 1/2 % per day after maturity. The worst we have ever fed was 6% and that kind of hay is used on cold days and inclement weather days during calving as bedding and extra lignite to keep them warm.
The worst thing ranchers can hear is "I'm from the government and want to help". 🤓 You may not be one of those but many of your suggestions have too much cost over benefit to be useful.
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The key to long term adoption of the 'practices I preach' lies in the willingness, acceptance and understanding of how the practice is supposed to work. Unfortunately, many of the ranchers and producers (well over half) come to the government for "free money" in the form of practices that the government pays for. Once the practices are put in place and the money spent, many of the practices are abandoned or even destroyed. I've seen farmers jump up and down and nearly throw a tantrum to get 'free money' to build a practice (I'm specifically thinking of a fence here) that the producer, by contract, is supposed to maintain for 25 years, only to watch the producer tear that fence out 4 years later as it is his land and the government can't do a thing about it. Now consider that the money used to build that fence was YOUR tax money.
I've also seen government officials 'push' personal agendas and practices just to get money spent or that the government official is taking the approach that 'this is the way it has to be done' and you as the producer ( the one who is going to have the practice on their property AND using the practice) have to do it EXACTLY this way. That doesn't work at all either.
Most employees spend as little time as possible with the producer. This results in frequent failures and abandonment of long term application of practices. I am not like that. I cannot be making repeated, monthly trips out to a producer. But what I do, and I have about 4x the long term success of plan implementation than my fellow employees (12-15% long term implementation isn't anything to brag about, but it's significantly better by a long shot of 3-4) but I do spend as much time as needed by the farmer/rancher/producer as needed on two separate occasions, I wish it could be more. I make every attempt that I can conceive to understand the producers operation and discuss options with them that could work on THEIR farm. If they don't like the idea, that idea is dropped right then and there as the producer isn't going to use something on their property on a daily basis for the next 20 years, even if it is fully paid for by the government or, a step further, the government pays him for it. Once I know what the producer wants after a minimum of 2 hours discussion with them, I then return to my 'inside' office and compose THE PRODUCERS plan, it is NOT MY PLAN. To many of my colleges get that wrong as well. Once I have done that, I then take the producers plan back to the producer and painstakingly review it with them. Many of my colleges just basically spend 5 minutes doing this with the producer by saying 'here's our plan we wrote for you, please sign here', and that's it. I have been known to spend 12 hours with the farmer/producer when I present the plan to them ensuring that they understand the plan and addressing their concerns.
As I mentioned to start, over half the producers I work with are just after free money. My long term success rate of adoption is not great, largely in part because of this. I have developed some/many excellent working relationships with farmers/ranchers/producers while my colleges have largely not.
You got the quote close to what it is supposed to be: "I'm from the government and I'M HERE to help", which is actually scarier than saying "I WANT to help". I know the phrase and grasp the repercussions it has.
I get what you are saying in terms of cost/benefit ratio/analysis. There are multiple ways to approach/address resource concerns depending on producer needs, capabilities and concerns. No single practice is going to fit everyone. Additionally, no two grazing operations are the same. I have written well over 300 individual grazing plans and I have ALWAYS tailored each and every single one of them to the individual producer. I wish I could say the same for the plans I've seen my colleges produce. Unfortunately, when I look at one of those plans that they have written for you and then a plan they wrote for your neighbor, I'm unable to figure out which plan was written for whom and how the plans are different.

Some of the responses I give on the forum are generic in nature because of the audience, and by that I mean it's a diverse audience where a specific answer isn't going to apply. There have been some generic and hypothetical questions/scenarios proposed on this forum at times where a specific, detailed answer is desired. Unfortunately there isn't a way for me to be specific if the question is generic.

I'm happy to spend time addressing anyones concerns or questions they have. I don't know everything and will tell you if I don't know. I am human and to err is human. I will admit my errors when they occur when I realize that and/or someone finds a mistake that I have made. Everyone is biased and has an opinion. I make every attempt to present the information I offer on scientific evidence and discovery and keep my personal bias from influencing that, but I am human.
 
Warren Allison said:
I don't recall ever seeing this plant, either up here or down at the south GA place. If we have it or have had it, it didn't bother cows. Maybe they didn't eat it, or maybe for some reason it didn't affect them if they did eat it, or might have blamed its effects on something else. Then again, I have lived nearly 7 decades with every pasture up here being fescue, and a lot of the hay here is fescue. Have always brought south Ga, south Ala and Fla cattle up here, and kept them on fescue, and never have I ever seen or heard tell of cattle being affected by it, til I joined CT. Only warning I ever heard about fescue was concerning pregnant mares. I am going to send that link that @Lucky_P posted to Scott, and ask him if he knows if they have any around there.
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The fescue again. @Warren Allison, I think I might have scarred you for life with that picture of 'fescue foot' ;) All of us learn every day of our lives here on earth. The day we think we have finally learned it all, we might as well dig our own grave and jump in. Sycle pod/coffee weed I think may be more of a weed in crop fields in pasture, I just don't know enough. I would say it is likely somewhere close to where you are though as it is in SC and AR, and you are almost exactly in between. If you can, find a picture of a dead one with the pods still attached to it. The dead plant is very persistent and the 'skeletons' were very easily identifiable to me.
 
When we bought this place in 2014 there were only two interior fences and two stock water locations. We leveraged federal EQIP money to add 3 water tanks and divide from 4 pastures (two were CRP that expired in 2020 with no water) to 9 pastures, all with water tanks. We were going to do it in any event, but were able to get it done in 6 years where it would have taken us 10+ years without EQIP. We had to do some grazing practices for 3 years and meet wildlife friendly fence specs, but they were not a big deal and we fully use all of the infrastructure EQIP cost shared. We didn't go looking for projects do to just to get some federal money, but we did get quite a bit of our income taxes back for things we needed to do here.
 
GoWyo said:
When we bought this place in 2014 there were only two interior fences and two stock water locations. We leveraged federal EQIP money to add 3 water tanks and divide from 4 pastures (two were CRP that expired in 2020 with no water) to 9 pastures, all with water tanks. We were going to do it in any event, but were able to get it done in 6 years where it would have taken us 10+ years without EQIP. We had to do some grazing practices for 3 years and meet wildlife friendly fence specs, but they were not a big deal and we fully use all of the infrastructure EQIP cost shared. We didn't go looking for projects do to just to get some federal money, but we did get quite a bit of our income taxes back for things we needed to do here.
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I love EQIP success stories 🐮❤️
 
I will give you an EQIP story. One farm i bought already had an EQIP plan approved. In order to get 1 water tank and 1 cross fence i had to fence a sky pond. This means a pond with no water running in or out. The NRCS district conservationists that has written the plan hadn't even addressed a spring that ran into a cave on the property. About 5 years later after adding an adjoining farm i used excluding the spring to get a project including a well, several water troughs, lots of cross fencing, brush control, seeding, and more.
I actually don't think the guy writing the first plan ever was on the farm.
 
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No such thing as free money, the government took it from our pockets in the form of taxes. While we have taken emergency assistance for drought and fires, I won't participate in funding for infrastructure etc. I like to make my own decisions how a project is done.
 

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