Calculators and Cattle Feed

[chevytaHOE5674]

I have never once in my entire life both on the internet or elsewhere even mentioned Bermuda hay. That's not a thing UP here. In fact before the internet I didn't know it existed and truthfully still don't care that it does. Ha

I said people sell horse hay for $2-3. That is in fact hay that will maintain a horse thru a winter of 24 feet of snowfall and -30°. I've got a 30yo paint gelding in the field that is living proof that there is a such thing as $3 horse hay. Lol

Your getting senile old man you said this right here....

No matter what the breed is, if their nutritional needs are not met, they will fail to rebreed or raise a big calf.

My whole point is select cows that flourish on low quality forage. Make the cows work for you and your environment. Supplementing and feeding high dollar hay is just propagating high maintaince cows.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

......feeding the best hay in the state.

That's another wild outlandish claim.

Have you tested your hay against EVERY OTHER PRODUCER in your state?

Until you do then that's another bit of hot air.

I dont doubt you sell hay for $17 and mulch for $6. I also don't doubt the land costs and average income in your are many times higher than here. Just like I bet someplace in Comifornia charges $30 for a square bale, but they also don't buy land for $500/a.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I have never once in my entire life both on the internet or elsewhere even mentioned Bermuda hay. That's not a thing UP here. In fact before the internet I didn't know it existed and truthfully still don't care that it does. Ha

I said people sell horse hay for $2-3. That is in fact hay that will maintain a horse thru a winter of 24 feet of snowfall and -30°. I've got a 30yo paint gelding in the field that is living proof that there is a such thing as $3 horse hay. Lol

Your getting senile old man you said this right here....


My whole point is select cows that flourish on low quality forage. Make the cows work for you and your environment. Supplementing and feeding high dollar hay is just propagating high maintaince cows.

The key with what @Warren Allison is saying is "meet the nutritional needs". Better than 90% of all hay from roughly the Mississippi eastward and from KY/TN northward is going to have more than enough quality to meet nutritional needs. That's going to be somewhere around 8-8.5% protein. Meeting that level becomes a bit more challenging with TYPICAL Bermuda grass south of there but still east of the Mississippi. When you head west of the Mississippi, it becomes a whole new ballgame. Protein percentages drop to around a 'typical' 5%.

I'll point out that it is possible to go the other direction with hay from the Mississippi through the Northeast, and this has to be done for an extended period, but unfortunately I've seen it done.....twice. That is: Starve a cow with a full rumen. That means that the cow has been getting less than maintenance levels from the forage she has been eating for an extended period of time. Hay availability was not limited, ever. Yet the cow starved. I don't know the occurrence rate in the south or the west, but imagine that it is actually higher than up here. Maintenance requirements for all breeds are going to be pretty much equal. However, the ability of different breeds of cattle to be able to obtain the nutrient levels required from various feedstuffs is going to be what is variable, not the requirement itself. There are a lot of weeds that many breeds won't consume or maybe can't consume, but these 'weeds' have very percentages of protein and energy. This is why something like the Longhorn or Cornette seem to do so well on what might be thought of as pretty much 'trash' forage. It's actually quite nutritious, it's just most cows can't/don't eat it.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

For reference just the trucking on fertilizer cost $24 an acre this year. Adds right around $6 per bale just in fertilizer transportation.

Using your numbers, it sounds like you're only getting 2 tons to the acre a year. It sounds like you not doing well with yield or as you admit quality.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

For reference just the trucking on fertilizer cost $24 an acre this year. Adds right around $6 per bale just in fertilizer transportation.

If you are being charged a per acre charge for hauling, you need to check for yourself that this is reasonable for the land base you are having it applied to. If the co-op is always spreading the same quantity of fertilizer on the land base, this might make sense. BUT, if this is what is being done, I'll pretty much guarantee you that very little of the land base is getting what it needs. In other words, different fields are going to require different nutrient levels from each other. Additionally, fertilizers can be/do consist of different nutrient mixes.

So, if one field, say 10 acres in size requires 500# of fertilizer per acre and another field requires 2,500# of fertilizer per acre, the co-op is going to charge you a hauling fee of $24 per acre, for both fields? There has got to be something else in the cost figure as applying this train of thought would seem to mean that charging rates are very unequal for the 2 fields.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Issue here if you try to bump up your yield is dry down. 3 dry days are a challenge. Cool nights with heavy dew is a given. Daytime temps in the 60s is to be expected. Wet soil and standing water are abundant.

There's not enough hours in the days to ted your hay enough to get 4 ton to the acre hay to dry.

Heck this year with the cool wet weather and smoke from canada blocking the sun. 4 days isn't enough to get hay dry before the next rain.

2 nights ago it was 41 degrees and today's high temp was 63 with filter sun with Canadian smoke. The heavy dew from last night never dried off today...

 

[gcreekrch]

Using your numbers, it sounds like you're only getting 2 tons to the acre a year. It sounds like you not doing well with yield or as you admit quality.

2 tons is a good average crop for us but we don't fertilize or pump water. Last year at hard cost our feed was in the stack yard for under $70 per ton. I have friends who do both and while they get more tonnage, it costs them $110+ per ton before they cut it.

 

[gcreekrch]

Issue here if you try to bump up your yield is dry down. 3 dry days are a challenge. Cool nights with heavy dew is a given. Daytime temps in the 60s is to be expected. Wet soil and standing water are abundant.

There's not enough hours in the days to ted your hay enough to get 4 ton to the acre hay to dry.

Heck this year with the cool wet weather and smoke from canada blocking the sun. 4 days isn't enough to get hay dry before the next rain.

2 nights ago it was 41 degrees and today's high temp was 63 with filter sun with Canadian smoke. The heavy dew from last night never dried off today...

Do you wrap any haylage?

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If you are being charged a per acre charge for hauling, you need to check for yourself that this is reasonable for the land base you are having it applied to. If the co-op is always spreading the....

Um the co-op is 200 miles away ain't no way they are coming here to spread. That is the cost to hire a semi to haul it to the farm 47-50 a ton just in the trucking not including the actual fertilizer. That is if/when you can find a trucker willing to haul UP here.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Do you wrap any haylage?

I do when needed. It adds quite a bit of cost and I don't have the manpower to do much volume.

But on a wet year it can be useful. This year with 22" of rainfall in June you couldn't even get in the field to make haylage.

 

[Twisted]

Do you wrap any haylage?

You beat me to it. If I couldn't dry it out, I would definitely be looking into it. A little fertilizer and a bale wrapper would not only boost the winter gains but could raise the summer stocking rates.

 

[kenny thomas]

If you are being charged a per acre charge for hauling, you need to check for yourself that this is reasonable for the land base you are having it applied to. If the co-op is always spreading the same quantity of fertilizer on the land base, this might make sense. BUT, if this is what is being done, I'll pretty much guarantee you that very little of the land base is getting what it needs. In other words, different fields are going to require different nutrient levels from each other. Additionally, fertilizers can be/do consist of different nutrient mixes.

So, if one field, say 10 acres in size requires 500# of fertilizer per acre and another field requires 2,500# of fertilizer per acre, the co-op is going to charge you a hauling fee of $24 per acre, for both fields? There has got to be something else in the cost figure as applying this train of thought would seem to mean that charging rates are very unequal for the 2 fields.

Do you see areas that the soil test recommends 2500lb per acre for hay? If so how is the breakdown of whats needed.

 

[gcreekrch]

I do when needed. It adds quite a bit of cost and I don't have the manpower to do much volume.

But on a wet year it can be useful. This year with 22" of rainfall in June you couldn't even get in the field to make haylage.

You have far more moisture than we do but ground conditions are very similar. Round balers made this country, wrappers improved things more.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm a one man band so trying to get volume done wrapping is hard. Small fields scattered across 20 miles of range makes it hard to rake, bale, haul, and wrap much in a day.

It's nothing to bale up 180 dry bales in a day in good going and haul them at my leisure. Baling, hauling, wrapping 40 in a day can be a struggle.

 

[Warren Allison]

I have never once in my entire life both on the internet or elsewhere even mentioned Bermuda hay. That's not a thing UP here. In fact before the internet I didn't know it existed and truthfully still don't care that it does. Ha

I said people sell horse hay for $2-3. That is in fact hay that will maintain a horse thru a winter of 24 feet of snowfall and -30°. I've got a 30yo paint gelding in the field that is living proof that there is a such thing as $3 horse hay. Lol

Well, whatever kind it is, if you can buy 50-60lb, weed-free, 18-20% protein grass hay for $2-$3 dollars a bale , I will buy all you can get for $4-$6.

Your getting senile old man you said this right here....

Warren Allison said:
No matter what the breed is, if their nutritional needs are not met, they will fail to rebreed or raise a big calf.

OMG, do you really not understand what " if their nutritional needs are not met..", means?!!!

My whole point is select cows that flourish on low quality forage. Make the cows work for you and your environment. Supplementing and feeding high dollar hay is just propagating high maintaince cows.

I whole heartedly agree with you on that! Been doing this very successfully since before the turn of the century, about 30 years or so. I doubt the cattle we have would work very well there with 24' of snow and 30 below weather! This year we have taken in 400 acres of row crop land, and sowed it in Bermuda, or Bahia, and alfalfa. And this we did fertilize to UGA specs, and sprayed for weeds, and irrigated. Even though this was all or nearly all paid with grants, I have kept up with the costs. And my prediction is we will see very little, if any difference between the calves there and the ones across the road on the Kudzu place. I am gonna say that if we did have to buy all of that, we'd never make up the costs with what... if any... more money the calves brought.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Do you see areas that the soil test recommends 2500lb per acre for hay? If so how is the breakdown of whats needed.

If the soils ph or cation levels are out of whack then several tons of lime or gypsum could be needed to get the the soil levels right.

 

[Warren Allison]

The key with what @Warren Allison is saying is "meet the nutritional needs". Better than 90% of all hay from roughly the Mississippi eastward and from KY/TN northward is going to have more than enough quality to meet nutritional needs. That's going to be somewhere around 8-8.5% protein. Meeting that level becomes a bit more challenging with TYPICAL Bermuda grass south of there but still east of the Mississippi. When you head west of the Mississippi, it becomes a whole new ballgame. Protein percentages drop to around a 'typical' 5%.

I'll point out that it is possible to go the other direction with hay from the Mississippi through the Northeast, and this has to be done for an extended period, but unfortunately I've seen it done.....twice. That is: Starve a cow with a full rumen. That means that the cow has been getting less than maintenance levels from the forage she has been eating for an extended period of time. Hay availability was not limited, ever. Yet the cow starved. I don't know the occurrence rate in the south or the west, but imagine that it is actually higher than up here. Maintenance requirements for all breeds are going to be pretty much equal. However, the ability of different breeds of cattle to be able to obtain the nutrient levels required from various feedstuffs is going to be what is variable, not the requirement itself. There are a lot of weeds that many breeds won't consume or maybe can't consume, but these 'weeds' have very percentages of protein and energy. This is why something like the Longhorn or Cornette seem to do so well on what might be thought of as pretty much 'trash' forage. It's actually quite nutritious, it's just most cows can't/don't eat it.

The main trash weed that ours eat, is in fact 25-26% protein. And I haven't seen a cow of any kind that won't go to it first if they have a choice. Over at our place, we have had Angus, Brangus, Chi-Angus and Simmental bulls, and dairy, Brahma, and Plummer cows, and they all loved it as much as the Corrs. Wouldn't hardly touch anything else if the Kudzu was where they were!!

I have seen that before too...cows starve to death with all the hay they could eat free choice 24/7. Fills their bellies but they are getting no nutrition out of it.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

The main trash weed that ours eat, is in fact 25-26% protein. And I haven't seen a cow of any kind that won't go to it first if they have a choice. Over at our place, we have had Angus, Brangus, Chi-Angus and Simmental bulls, and dairy, Brahma, and Plummer cows, and they all loved it as much as the Corrs. Wouldn't hardly touch anything else if the Kudzu was where they were!!

I have seen that before too...cows starve to death with all the hay they could eat free choice 24/7. Fills their bellies but they are getting no nutrition out of it.

@Warren Allison, since you have seen that too (although you are in NW Georgia) are you familiar with the phrase "At least it's better than snowballs!"? And what do you think of that phrase?

I know what you are saying about the trash weed and the cow going to it first. Here it does depend on the weed in terms of preference, and maturity stage. Cattle won't touch ironweed up her, in spite of the protein. Ragweed depends on the stage. I wasn't down there long enough to get to know the weeds that well. What about Sycle pod down there where you are, or is that one toxic?

 

[kenny thomas]

If the soils ph or cation levels are out of whack then several tons of lime or gypsum could be needed to get the the soil levels right.

You are correct. I wasn't thinking of lime, only fertilizer.

 

[Lucky_P]

Starve a cow with a full rumen. That means that the cow has been getting less than maintenance levels from the forage she has been eating for an extended period of time. Hay availability was not limited, ever. Yet the cow starved. I don't know the occurrence rate in the south or the west, but imagine that it is actually higher than up here.

Mark, as a veterinary pathologist, working in a veterinary diagnostic lab setting here in western KY... I saw those cows starved to death with a belly full of all the free-choice crappy hay that they could eat, almost every winter. Some years were worse than others.... 2013-2014 may have been the worst in memory. Hay - when we could get producers to test it - was typically running 3-4% crude protein. Below 7%, there is not enough N present for the rumen microherd to be able to digest it, if not providing a protein supplement. So... these cows/calves would fill up, but since they couldn't adequately digest it, it mostly just sat in the rumen... so dry matter consumption dropped... and the cattle start catabolizing body fat and muscle tissues. Ol' gals usually 'ran out of gas' with green grass just over the hill, but in 2013-14, I was seeing starve-outs in mid-December. Folks were making claims about some sort of 'pathogen' in the hay... there was no pathogen, just not enough protein or TDN to support even a dry cow, much less one nursing a calf - or a growing calf. Producers who were just 'counting heads' and weren't really LOOKING at their cattle, were surprised... she had a big ol' belly... but if you looked at muscle/fat cover... they were BCS 2&3s... not the 5,6,7s you'd like to see.