cab if you want the facts less than 25 % of blackhided make

[dun]

Dun do not bother to play sherrif!

It's the personal attacks that get out of hand. A discussion is one thing, an argument is another.
Macon diesn't read every post. I had hoped to calm down the bickering. It's hard to learn anything from arguments.

dun

 

[buckaroo_bif]

jeesh! i wish people would just get along...

 

[Bez]

Bif

I did not see a prob. Too many "sensitivity" worriers here.

As for "getting along" - didn't that statement originally come from Berkely during the drugged out 60's?

Bez

 

[Frankie]

As Macon would probably say ENOUGH

dun

But Macon hasn't said "enough." We're just having a discussion here, not calling names or using bad language. Not to be rude, but if you don't don't want to be bothered, don't read the posts. I've been posting here since the board started. Macon and the monitors should know by now that I'm not going to cuss someone out. I have a pretty tough hide; if someone uses bad language on me, I'll let "management" of the board know. This week has been busy and today is, too, so I'm not sure when I'll get back to this. But I will get back to it. And to those that I owe PMs, be patient. I promise to get to them this weekend.....

 

[1848]

Thankyou Frankie,

I must admit, I was even beginning to think it was getting out of hand....or I was just having way too much fun! :lol: In any case, I am glad to hear you still saw it as a discussion.

Go Herefords!....or some other breed! ;-)

 

[buckaroo_bif]

Bif

I did not see a prob. Too many "sensitivity" worriers here.

As for "getting along" - didn't that statement originally come from Berkely during the drugged out 60's?

Bez

ok ok as long as someones feelers don't get hurt then is fine with me!
just seemed to be sounding a bit personal but my mistake!

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, there is a new division of CHB that is Choice and above only. I read it in the Hereford World. There is also Ridgefield Premium Hereford Beef out there. The 30% growth was not from 0 either. That was in one year.

Anyone can call anything Hereford or Angus unless it's a USDA certified program. Is Ridgefield a USDA certified program? And, again not beating you up, but according to the link below, CHB grew 17% last year, not 30%. Pay attention now; it's a fast moving world.

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_certified_hereford_rolls/

 

[Frankie]

And we know that calves sired by registered Angus bulls meet the CAB specs at a higher rate. I'm calling BS.

:lol: Yeah, you've got some room to call BS. (sarcasam intended) You, who claimed all MARC data showed that Angus cattle stink, but refused to give a link. Then refused to discuss the current MARC data that I found showing otherwise. You, who claimed you saw several big ranchers say they wouldn't own a black bull, but refused to say who or where. You've haven't got standing to call BS.

Says, who? Given the fact that Angus is number one for registrations, and everybody else is a distant second, with Hereford, Red Angus, and Charolais in there too, plus the fact that Limousin and Gelbvieh still records around 45-50% red bulls, and Simmental is around 25% red bulls, I'd say that way over 60%, and probably over 70% of the cattle that get a "tryout" for CAB are already Angus sired.

You can "say" whatever you want and it doesn't seem to matter much to you that you don't have anything to back it up. So, I say prove to me (and everyone else on this board) what percentage of Limi, Gelbvieh are actually red. I get to Limousin bull sales occasionally, and way less than half of them are usually red. And the breeder takes a hit on those. You're right about registrations, though. Here are some facts you might be interested in:

In response to a survey of ranchers:
97% say they have Angus genetics influence in their herds
(Hereford next, way down at 32%)
70% say they buy only Angus bulls
97% said they have bought an Angus bull within the last five years
69% sell their calves at the sale barn

I'll stick by my guns, the Y 4's are what kills the chances for CAB after meeting upper 2/3 choice. If you want more CAB, breed those black cows to a high marbling Continental, you can consistently beat 30% CAB, and possibly much better. I've known guys that make 60%, and this is on 300 or more head in a pen, not some set-up purebred deal where there are 15, and it's called 100% CAB, I'm talking 60% on 300 head, which is way better than any Straightbred Angus you'll hear about.

The biggest reason steers don't meet CAB specs is marbling (link below). The best way to take care of that is buy a bull with a high marbling EPD. I'd be happy to accept YG as the next thing, considering dark cutters, small carcass, overly large carcass, etc. At least YG can be managed. You keep throwing out numbers as if anyone took you seriously on this board. Do try to redeem yourself and show us some references. (Or keep blowing hot air, it is a bit cool today)

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_epds_precision_loads/

 

[Frankie]

You know, everytime (no, not every time - but lots of times) something gets going there is someone who jumps in and puts the "Macon won't like it" spin on things. Right after that there will be a couple of chirpers adding "Yeah, right on, Macon won't like it".

I figure thats crapola - he is an adult and does not need words put in his mouth. Nothing was out of line and I figure if there is a problem he will speak up - otherwise it is fair game on the boards. I couldn't give two hoots if a couple of guys want to have a strongly worded debate - in fact I encourage it - more for me to learn.

I admit cab is completely foreign to me - it's sort of tried up here - but very little is known. And the consumer has no idea half the time what they are buying - other than the specialty stores.

I use blacks on my reds because it works - never got a premium for it in my life. I figure cab works in the U.S. of A. then fine. Do what you gotta' do to make a buck. If it isn't tan in this area you are discounted - go figure.

So have at boys - I'll read the posts and make up MY OWN mind.

Bez

Hey, Bez, thanks for the support.

 

[txag]

In response to a survey of ranchers:
97% say they have Angus genetics influence in their herds
(Hereford next, way down at 32%)
70% say they buy only Angus bulls
97% said they have bought an Angus bull within the last five years
69% sell their calves at the sale barn

i've been staying out of this one but i have to question this survey. 97% said they bought an angus bull within the last five years? where was it taken......from attendees at an angus sale? :roll:

 

[Frankie]

In response to a survey of ranchers:
97% say they have Angus genetics influence in their herds
(Hereford next, way down at 32%)
70% say they buy only Angus bulls
97% said they have bought an Angus bull within the last five years
69% sell their calves at the sale barn

i've been staying out of this one but i have to question this survey. 97% said they bought an angus bull within the last five years? where was it taken......from attendees at an angus sale? :roll:

Why, it was an Angus survey, of course. Here's a link to the article. Looks like we need to send out the GEICO guy and his gecko to look for that other 3%.

http://www.angusjournal.com/aj_article1.html?CID=4604

You might be more interested in a Western Livestock Journal survey that showed only 68.8% of their readers are using Angus bulls. That doesn't seem so bad (or good), until you drop down to the 2nd most used breed at 13.2. It was interesting to me, too, that Red Angus and Hereford were tied for second place. I also wish there was some way to compare this one to their past surveys.

http://www.wlj.net/images/rc_04bullsurvey.pdf

 

[gbisch]

Frankie, there is a new division of CHB that is Choice and above only. I read it in the Hereford World. There is also Ridgefield Premium Hereford Beef out there. The 30% growth was not from 0 either. That was in one year.

Anyone can call anything Hereford or Angus unless it's a USDA certified program. Is Ridgefield a USDA certified program? And, again not beating you up, but according to the link below, CHB grew 17% last year, not 30%. Pay attention now; it's a fast moving world.

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_certified_hereford_rolls/

Ridgefield Farms Premium Hereford Beef is a USDA Certified Program.

Here is a link to the specs:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/be ... efield.htm

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/sc ... dGL-46.htm

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Frankie, you are really good - I would NEVER want to debate you about facts or statistics concerning Angus. And I mean that as a compliment. I too, enjoy the debates. But, I have to add my two cents.

As most know, I am a purebred Simmental breeder - with 1/2 black & 1/2 red Simmies.
I think the Simmental X Angus is a marriage made in heaven. You get the best of two worlds - but, this is JMO. There are very useful purposes of many breeds & combinations of breeds. I'm not breed bashing.

Fact: a first generation PUREBRED Simmental is 7/8 Simmental & 1/8 other breed. The gene for black hair is a dominant gene, therefore it was very easy to make other breeds black using Angus base.
MO - But, 1/8 or LESS Angus genes can't claim that ALL that is good about the black animal came from Angus genes. That's stretching a gene pretty far. Speaking for the black Simmental cattle, I think the SIMMENTAL genes dominating the animal makes them great - not the black hair.

Fact: Based on data from the industry's largest structured-carcass-testing program (more than 30,000 females bred to date), Simmental X Angus carcasses average 76% Choice or higher with a 2.7 Yield Grade.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental is the #1 Continental breed for marbling.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental will improve yield by 3/4 of a grade over Angus.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental ranks First in 11 catagories among Continental breeds: in CE, WW, % Choice, Carcass Weight, Post Wean Gain, Shear Force, Feed Efficiency by Wt Gain, Feed Efficiency by Marbling, Feed Efficiency by Reatil Product, % Puberty, Maternal Calving Ease,
and SECOND in Pounds of Retail Product, Feed Efficiency by Days, % Pregnant, & Maternal Wean Weight.

Fact: Based on MARC - Angus ranks First in 8 catagories among British Breeds in:
CE, WW, Carcass Wt, Post Wen Gain, #s of Retail Product, Shear Force, Feed Efficiency by Marbling, Maternal WW.
and SECOND in % Choice, Feed Efficiency by WT Gain, Feed Efficiency by Retail Product, Feed Efficiency by Days, % Puberty, & Maternal CE, and THIRD in % Pregnancy.

These are just a few facts that substantiates my belief that the two breeds compliment each other. And I can't quote where I read it (my brain can hardly remember what I did yesterday) - I read that the Simm X Angus steers were a higher qualifying % than the straight Angust steers in the CAB program. Now I know I shouldn't put something in here I can't back up - but if you read the facts about the two breeds, you could understand that this is a probable fact.

Anyway, good discussion.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

Jeanne, I'm just curious about the following:

In the above post you made reference to 7/8 Sim 1/8 Angus black simmies. In the next paragraph you referred to Sim x Angus carcasses grading 76% Choice --- were those 50/50Sim/Angus crosses? Or were you suggesting that 1/8 Angus influenced purebred Simmies in the study graded 76% Choice?

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Frankie, there is a new division of CHB that is Choice and above only. I read it in the Hereford World. There is also Ridgefield Premium Hereford Beef out there. The 30% growth was not from 0 either. That was in one year.

Anyone can call anything Hereford or Angus unless it's a USDA certified program. Is Ridgefield a USDA certified program? And, again not beating you up, but according to the link below, CHB grew 17% last year, not 30%. Pay attention now; it's a fast moving world.

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_certified_hereford_rolls/

The 30% figure has been exceeded in some years, however. I just took 1848 at his/her word on that, and I don't think 1848 stated that was the absolute number. 17% is still impressive. And Ridgefield is USDA certified. Get yourself a copy of Hereford America. They cover Ridgefield much more than HW. There are actually black bulls advertised in HA, and it wouldn't hurt you to brush up on your Hereford knowledge before you debate them ;-) :lol: I'll pay attention if you will. Still friends?

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Frankie, you are really good - I would NEVER want to debate you about facts or statistics concerning Angus. And I mean that as a compliment. I too, enjoy the debates. But, I have to add my two cents.

As most know, I am a purebred Simmental breeder - with 1/2 black & 1/2 red Simmies.
I think the Simmental X Angus is a marriage made in heaven. You get the best of two worlds - but, this is JMO. There are very useful purposes of many breeds & combinations of breeds. I'm not breed bashing.

Fact: a first generation PUREBRED Simmental is 7/8 Simmental & 1/8 other breed. The gene for black hair is a dominant gene, therefore it was very easy to make other breeds black using Angus base.
MO - But, 1/8 or LESS Angus genes can't claim that ALL that is good about the black animal came from Angus genes. That's stretching a gene pretty far. Speaking for the black Simmental cattle, I think the SIMMENTAL genes dominating the animal makes them great - not the black hair.

Fact: Based on data from the industry's largest structured-carcass-testing program (more than 30,000 females bred to date), Simmental X Angus carcasses average 76% Choice or higher with a 2.7 Yield Grade.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental is the #1 Continental breed for marbling.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental will improve yield by 3/4 of a grade over Angus.

Fact: Based on MARC - Simmental ranks First in 11 catagories among Continental breeds: in CE, WW, % Choice, Carcass Weight, Post Wean Gain, Shear Force, Feed Efficiency by Wt Gain, Feed Efficiency by Marbling, Feed Efficiency by Reatil Product, % Puberty, Maternal Calving Ease,
and SECOND in Pounds of Retail Product, Feed Efficiency by Days, % Pregnant, & Maternal Wean Weight.

Fact: Based on MARC - Angus ranks First in 8 catagories among British Breeds in:
CE, WW, Carcass Wt, Post Wen Gain, #s of Retail Product, Shear Force, Feed Efficiency by Marbling, Maternal WW.
and SECOND in % Choice, Feed Efficiency by WT Gain, Feed Efficiency by Retail Product, Feed Efficiency by Days, % Puberty, & Maternal CE, and THIRD in % Pregnancy.

These are just a few facts that substantiates my belief that the two breeds compliment each other. And I can't quote where I read it (my brain can hardly remember what I did yesterday) - I read that the Simm X Angus steers were a higher qualifying % than the straight Angust steers in the CAB program. Now I know I shouldn't put something in here I can't back up - but if you read the facts about the two breeds, you could understand that this is a probable fact.

Anyway, good discussion.

Would you mind to tell us who is #1 in % pregnancy in any breed? (I just want to know if you've seen the same research I have.)

 

[1848]

Frankie, there is a new division of CHB that is Choice and above only. I read it in the Hereford World. There is also Ridgefield Premium Hereford Beef out there. The 30% growth was not from 0 either. That was in one year.

Anyone can call anything Hereford or Angus unless it's a USDA certified program. Is Ridgefield a USDA certified program? And, again not beating you up, but according to the link below, CHB grew 17% last year, not 30%. Pay attention now; it's a fast moving world.

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_certified_hereford_rolls/

Nice "google" search Frankie!

This is also from the same web site you posted above.

A total of 38 million lbs. of Certified Hereford Beef® sold in 2004, a 5.5-million-lb. increase over 2003. Since fiscal year 2000, CHB LLC sales tonnage has climbed at an annual average rate of 36%, while the retail customer base has expanded to 376 store locations in 26 states.

It helps when you provide everybody all the information instead of a single point sometimes!

For all of you interested in "facts" as Frankie says. Here is a copy of the 2003 CHB report. 2004 will not load, but they did better in 2004, then in 2003 as stated above.

http://www.herefordbeef.org/_CHB/Docume ... 3AnRpt.pdf

On another note CHB "Classic" has seen 27% growth "annualy" since 1997

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I was waiting for you to weigh in again, 1848. I stress again: Unless you have experienced CHB AND CAB for yourself, don't pass judgement on them! They are two excellent programs, and I enjoy eating either one! The best steakhouse experience EVER in my life was a CHB steak. I have eaten at a number of CAB steakhouses, and they are usually good too. I have purchased CHB and CAB with excellent results. Nothing, however, has been better than my own home-grown Hereford beef.

 

[1848]

I'm baaaack.

See my answers to the underlined references below.. :roll:

And we know that calves sired by registered Angus bulls meet the CAB specs at a higher rate. I'm calling BS.

If we know the only requirement for CAB is 51% black, then who is doing the research on Angus sired calves for the CAB? Biased Angus people?.. :lol:

You, who claimed you saw several big ranchers say they wouldn't own a black bull, but refused to say who or where. You've haven't got standing to call BS.

Who care who they are...do you actually need names!!...oh...my...gosh!

Says, who? Given the fact that Angus is number one for registrations, and everybody else is a distant second, with Hereford, Red Angus, and Charolais in there too, plus the fact that Limousin and Gelbvieh still records around 45-50% red bulls, and Simmental is around 25% red bulls, I'd say that way over 60%, and probably over 70% of the cattle that get a "tryout" for CAB are already Angus sired.

Remember Frankie,...We are talking registrations here. That dosn't mean all those little bulls registered by "the largest" breed Assoc. get to grow up and be sires. Hmmmm. Let's see..largest Assoc., most registrations...duh!

"Probably" 70% Frankie! I'm pulling the BS flag up on you to back it up!
That was purely speculation, and out of character for you, since you seem to rely on everyone else on this board to back there statements up. Let me see some stats!...cmon..

I think what you meant to say is they might be black or 50% black, but of course to you that means Angus quality because surely, Limi's, Mains, and Brangus, and all the other breeds that ride the Angus' back arn't doing any beef quality advancements on their own...surely!

You can "say" whatever you want and it doesn't seem to matter much to you that you don't have anything to back it up. So, I say prove to me (and everyone else on this board) what percentage of Limi, Gelbvieh are actually red. I get to Limousin bull sales occasionally, and way less than half of them are usually red. And the breeder takes a hit on those. You're right about registrations, though. Here are some facts you might be interested in:

Geeeez. First you want to slam other breeds that moved from black, then you want to discredit them and give the credit to Angus for them being black, then you say most of the CAB grading cattle (you know the ones that only have to be 51% "black", not Angus) are infact being sired by Angus, but you are only "probably" sure on this one...I think I am going to be sick!.. :shock: :lol:

See below for more BS!

In response to a survey of ranchers:
97% say they have Angus genetics influence in their herds
(Hereford next, way down at 32%)
70% say they buy only Angus bulls
97% said they have bought an Angus bull within the last five years
69% sell their calves at the sale barn

They mean they have "black" influence :shock:
They mean they bought "black" bulls
I would be willing to bet 70% don't know Angus from Limi, from brangus, from Main, and I'm sure I would be at least "70%" accurate...probably! :shock:
I can't tell you how many people I have seen call a black animal Angus. Ever heard of Formica...you know the countertop stuff? It's a "brand name", but everybody calls it Formica.
I would say 69% of America sell there cattle in a sale barn..."not" counting sale barns for registered sales. :roll:

That felt kinda good! :lol:

 

[1848]

I was waiting for you to weigh in again, 1848. I stress again: Unless you have experienced CHB AND CAB for yourself, don't pass judgement on them! They are two excellent programs, and I enjoy eating either one! The best steakhouse experience EVER in my life was a CHB steak. I have eaten at a number of CAB steakhouses, and they are usually good too. I have purchased CHB and CAB with excellent results. Nothing, however, has been better than my own home-grown Hereford beef.

I agree