C- section or not?

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A

Anonymous

I have a hereford- cross heifer that was accidently bred to limo bull. She was AI ed with angus, but obviously did not take as she was due in late Sept. I bumped a calf on her yesterday that was a pretty good size(8 months or so). Vet is coming this week for pregnancy checks. Cow is on smaller side. We used to have dairy cows and only 1 c-section( disaster). I know beef cows are more resilient than dairy but what are some factors to consider whether or not to cut her or not?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> I have a hereford- cross heifer
> that was accidently bred to limo
> bull. She was AI ed with angus,
> but obviously did not take as she
> was due in late Sept. I bumped a
> calf on her yesterday that was a
> pretty good size(8 months or so).
> Vet is coming this week for
> pregnancy checks. Cow is on
> smaller side. We used to have
> dairy cows and only 1 c-section(
> disaster). I know beef cows are
> more resilient than dairy but what
> are some factors to consider
> whether or not to cut her or not?

My experience with C-Section was not so good. I had a registered cow that had a calf to large for her to birth naturally so we, the Vet and I, cut her. The calf was huge and very dead. The cow experienced a very long recovery and never had another calf. Sold her across the scale the next year when she turned up open.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Emergency C-sections tend to be more of a mess and problem then planned ones. If you have confidence in your vet, ask her/him/it if in CA)and leave it up to the pro.

dun

> I have a hereford- cross heifer
> that was accidently bred to limo
> bull. She was AI ed with angus,
> but obviously did not take as she
> was due in late Sept. I bumped a
> calf on her yesterday that was a
> pretty good size(8 months or so).
> Vet is coming this week for
> pregnancy checks. Cow is on
> smaller side. We used to have
> dairy cows and only 1 c-section(
> disaster). I know beef cows are
> more resilient than dairy but what
> are some factors to consider
> whether or not to cut her or not?



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Ask your vet about checking her internal pelvic diameter measurement.

> I have a hereford- cross heifer
> that was accidently bred to limo
> bull. She was AI ed with angus,
> but obviously did not take as she
> was due in late Sept. I bumped a
> calf on her yesterday that was a
> pretty good size(8 months or so).
> Vet is coming this week for
> pregnancy checks. Cow is on
> smaller side. We used to have
> dairy cows and only 1 c-section(
> disaster). I know beef cows are
> more resilient than dairy but what
> are some factors to consider
> whether or not to cut her or not?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I've done hundreds of c-sections and I've lost maybe 5. Frankly, if you do it properly and with sanitation, it's amazing what they can get through. Having said that, there are certain criteria I'll use. 1) is the calf alive--if it's not, a fetotomy is easier on mom--much less risk of peritonitis 2) can the calf be extracted alive in one piece and live from the hind end with traction, an episiotomy and an epidural? If so, do it!! 3) What is the value of the calf vs the dam--if it's an embryo calf in a recip, I'm quicker to section her. 4) will the calf hiplock on her--can be a problem with some breeds--then you'll lose the calf and maybe the dam... 5) if it's a malpositioning, how long will it take to correct it? Sometimes a c-section is faster and safer than repositioning a calf... 6) evidence of uterine tearing--I cut them open just to sew that up if I have to! There are other things that go through my mind for a c-sect. (like when I worked in Saskatchewan and had blood icicles hanging off my elbows and had frozen instruments...) but that's the bulk of them. The vast majority I've done have been in the "field" or barn on an emergency basis. I can only recall one planned c-sect and that was a cow with rabies, one week prior to calving--I got out two live calves which went on to be lovely heifers. Mom, of course, was euthanized immediately post-op. I've also found that additional pain control (on top of paravertebral block) during surgery to keep the cow quiet (I use butorphanol tartrate) is incredible at preventing problems AND getting them eating (often while I'm working on them)... Clear as mud? V
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I agree with Vicki, we have dairy cows and we had a heifer that I noticed was not progressing in her labor, so they did an emergency c- section. The Vet was extremely clean and it was not bad at all. She had a 153 baby calf , she was bred to a Reg. Beef Bull that was known for calving ease and we had twenty others calves all at low birth weights. Who knows why it happened , I guess it was due to the heifer. Anyway, she was sewn up really nicely and on antibiotics, ate well and within a week her scar was already healing. We kept by herself. I would not hesitiate to do it again. We had another one that had to be cut three times and it was horrible.( the vet thought he could pull it) She made it fine , but that was far worse than the c-section.

> I've done hundreds of c-sections
> and I've lost maybe 5. Frankly, if
> you do it properly and with
> sanitation, it's amazing what they
> can get through. Having said that,
> there are certain criteria I'll
> use. 1) is the calf alive--if it's
> not, a fetotomy is easier on
> mom--much less risk of peritonitis
> 2) can the calf be extracted alive
> in one piece and live from the
> hind end with traction, an
> episiotomy and an epidural? If so,
> do it!! 3) What is the value of
> the calf vs the dam--if it's an
> embryo calf in a recip, I'm
> quicker to section her. 4) will
> the calf hiplock on her--can be a
> problem with some breeds--then
> you'll lose the calf and maybe the
> dam... 5) if it's a
> malpositioning, how long will it
> take to correct it? Sometimes a
> c-section is faster and safer than
> repositioning a calf... 6)
> evidence of uterine tearing--I cut
> them open just to sew that up if I
> have to! There are other things
> that go through my mind for a
> c-sect. (like when I worked in
> Saskatchewan and had blood icicles
> hanging off my elbows and had
> frozen instruments...) but that's
> the bulk of them. The vast
> majority I've done have been in
> the "field" or barn on
> an emergency basis. I can only
> recall one planned c-sect and that
> was a cow with rabies, one week
> prior to calving--I got out two
> live calves which went on to be
> lovely heifers. Mom, of course,
> was euthanized immediately
> post-op. I've also found that
> additional pain control (on top of
> paravertebral block) during
> surgery to keep the cow quiet (I
> use butorphanol tartrate) is
> incredible at preventing problems
> AND getting them eating (often
> while I'm working on them)...
> Clear as mud? V



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> I have a hereford- cross heifer
> that was accidently bred to limo
> bull. She was AI ed with angus,
> but obviously did not take as she
> was due in late Sept. I bumped a
> calf on her yesterday that was a
> pretty good size(8 months or so).
> Vet is coming this week for
> pregnancy checks. Cow is on
> smaller side. We used to have
> dairy cows and only 1 c-section(
> disaster). I know beef cows are
> more resilient than dairy but what
> are some factors to consider
> whether or not to cut her or not?

The cow calved yesterday with twins, Both were born dead. The vet checked last week and said they would be ok for delivery. How can this be true if they are moving around and can get tangled up. She began labor at about 8 Am yesterday so I thought I would let her progress. By four, there was no progress so I called the vet to check. I probably should have followed my gut instinct and called first thing in the morning. I guess its better to be safe than sorry. What are the chances of twins being born unassisted? Please advise.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Wjen the go into heavy labor, if there is no progress in an hour, check and see what the problem is. If the feet are out for an hour and no progress, check and see what the problem is. It isn;t like humans that you let take hours and hours for labor. With twins frequently one is born dead, occasionally both. But the majority of the time the come alive and unassisted.

dun

> The cow calved yesterday with
> twins, Both were born dead. The
> vet checked last week and said
> they would be ok for delivery. How
> can this be true if they are
> moving around and can get tangled
> up. She began labor at about 8 Am
> yesterday so I thought I would let
> her progress. By four, there was
> no progress so I called the vet to
> check. I probably should have
> followed my gut instinct and
> called first thing in the morning.
> I guess its better to be safe than
> sorry. What are the chances of
> twins being born unassisted?
> Please advise.



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> Wjen the go into heavy labor, if
> there is no progress in an hour,
> check and see what the problem is.
> If the feet are out for an hour
> and no progress, check and see
> what the problem is. It isn;t like
> humans that you let take hours and
> hours for labor. With twins
> frequently one is born dead,
> occasionally both. But the
> majority of the time the come
> alive and unassisted.

> dun

This cow showed no signs of heavy labor! If she would have I might have reacted quicker. My gripe is that the vet checked her less than a week ago and said she would be fine. Someone did check on her all day and there was nothing noticeable other than a bit of a clear discharge from her vulva. One of the calves seemed to be a little premature. Could this have been dead for quite sometime and should the vet have been able to tell? Maybe Vicki can answer some of my questions?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

What the Vet probably meant was that the calves were small enough to be passed, were in the correct presentation at the time he/she checked, and that the cow was large enough to pass the calves and everything SHOULD be fine. no one can guarantee that complications wont occur. Twins can be tricky to deliver, especially if both try to come out at the same time or a breech comes out first. I just lost a set of twins last weekend. they were about 3-4 weeks early and out of one of my favorite brangus cows and an angus bull. she delivered them on her own during the night so i dont konw what the cause of death was for sure. anyway, sorry about your loss.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Sorry about your loss, we have had several sets of twins born without a problem. We bring all of your cows that are close to calving close to the house and then if I see them making no progress after a couple of hours, I call the vet right away, I rather spend the money then loose the animals. The last time I called quickly it was when the vet did the emergency c-section, boy was I glad. The longer the babies stay in, the greater the chance they will not make it. I am very sorry about your loss...

kat

> What the Vet probably meant was
> that the calves were small enough
> to be passed, were in the correct
> presentation at the time he/she
> checked, and that the cow was
> large enough to pass the calves
> and everything SHOULD be fine. no
> one can guarantee that
> complications wont occur. Twins
> can be tricky to deliver,
> especially if both try to come out
> at the same time or a breech comes
> out first. I just lost a set of
> twins last weekend. they were
> about 3-4 weeks early and out of
> one of my favorite brangus cows
> and an angus bull. she delivered
> them on her own during the night
> so i dont konw what the cause of
> death was for sure. anyway, sorry
> about your loss.



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> Sorry about your loss, we have had
> several sets of twins born without
> a problem. We bring all of your
> cows that are close to calving
> close to the house and then if I
> see them making no progress after
> a couple of hours, I call the vet
> right away, I rather spend the
> money then loose the animals. The
> last time I called quickly it was
> when the vet did the emergency
> c-section, boy was I glad. The
> longer the babies stay in, the
> greater the chance they will not
> make it. I am very sorry about
> your loss...

> kat

Well at least something good came out of this disaster. I started a month on calf on my momma cow that had the twins and she lets the calf nurse. I had to tie her up first, but she later accepted the calf. I will still keep an eye. At least she will be worth keeping around if she continues to mother this calf. Thanks for your caring messages. It is nice to have people who appreciate cattle to share the joys and sorrows of farming with.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

If the placenta separates, it doesn't matter how hard she presses, the calves will be dead. If they show signs of labour and no feet, an internal exam should be done--prepping both her vulva and the arm going in (preferably gloved, especially in the US states where there is brucellosis...). They can die quickly with no oxygen getting to them because their blood supply detached... I don't necessarily wait until they press hard, just acting like stage one for too long, since there could be a twist, or malpositioning....

Unless the calves were rotten or mummified, they likely died within a few hours of birth. Your vet may or may not have realized that there's two calves--it depends on how they're lying inside. The best time to tell twins for sure is about 60 days gestation, or after there's one on the ground and a second pair of feet!

Any other questions? V
 

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