BYERGO BLACK MAGIC 3348 Fruad?

[Richnm]

So this started when I called Universal Semen to make a purchase. I asked the semen specialist about Black Magic. He said '"THE SON OF BITCH IS A SIMMENTAL". I was already thinking that.It Mmade me think even more, and here we are. Regardless I am going to use him on a few cows.

 

[CattleMan1920]

So this started when I called Universal Semen to make a purchase. I asked the semen specialist about Black Magic. He said '"THE SON OF be nice IS A SIMMENTAL". I was already thinking that.It Mmade me think even more, and here we are. Regardless I am going to use him on a few cows.

Again, does the guy at Universal Semen have definitive proof? Or did he just pull it out of his rear end? Why would Byergo cross with Sim in order to get a one hit wonder and then be discovered by the Angus community and commercial producers, then subsequently have their operation seen as a joke. We are a seed stock producer, been around for a long time, and we wouldn't cut corners just for a quick hit. Byergo is a bigger operation than us and I simply don't see why they would risk what they have worked so hard for. Just my opinion.

 

[blacksnake]

My daughter is beautiful but I certainly am not. Fraud?

 

[CattleMan1920]

My daughter is beautiful but I certainly am not. Fraud?

Well said! LOL!

 

[jscunn]

Theoretically it would be easy to add another breeds influence and evade detection. Breed registered Angus/Bull cow #A to a Simmental, lie about sire or dam and have it registered as an Angus that would be cow/bull #B. Then breed #B back to an Angus. DNA doesn't go back to grandparents etc., not every cow/bulls DNA is on file

The AAA can tell if a bull is 100% Angus based on DNA testing. I can promise you he is an Angus bull. It would not be easy to slip in a Simmental or whatever in the woodpile. No matter what you think..

 

[W.B.]

Knowing what I know about Angus pedigrees I would say that Black Magic represents his pedigree very well. If you want traditional breed character he is not your bull. If you want growthy progeny that have more terminal character he is your bull. Different bulls for different purposes. I haven't seen any Conversion sons that sire what I would call maternal looking cattle.

 

[NEFarmwife]

So this started when I called Universal Semen to make a purchase. I asked the semen specialist about Black Magic. He said '"THE SON OF be nice IS A SIMMENTAL". I was already thinking that.It Mmade me think even more, and here we are. Regardless I am going to use him on a few cows.

I'm calling BS on what you state, Universal said. Semen reps aren't going to destroy their business reputation, by destroying semen they represent.

 

[Richnm]

I will give you his number

 

[NEFarmwife]

I will give you his number

Perfect!

 

[Cdcollett]

I bet Universal loves being drug into this s-show. It will be interesting how they respond.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Knowing what I know about Angus pedigrees I would say that Black Magic represents his pedigree very well. If you want traditional breed character he is not your bull. If you want growthy progeny that have more terminal character he is your bull. Different bulls for different purposes. I haven't seen any Conversion sons that sire what I would call maternal looking cattle.

I agree, with careful breeding you can have a thick, soggy bull, that looks like a tank. People will be quick to say "that's not Angus!" but they are wrong, very wrong. I have some registered Angus cows that are big 1850-2000 pounds, terminal CED, long and thick, but not overly tall. I can breed them to a bull like Stevenson Big League (reputable ranch right!) and can almost assure you that if it's a bull, he is going to look like what I'm describing above, and they will be FULL ANGUS, no Sim influence.

Take a look at this cow we have, she has a -6 CED, weighs about 1880 pounds and is almost 5 years old. She has Basin influence, an operation I trust, and she has multiple generations down on her dam side on our operation.



She is settled right now to SAV Supercharger, but if she was bred to the bull I mentioned above, Stevenson Big League, and had a bull calf, I can virtually assure you, he would be a BIG, SOGGY, bull, and ALL Angus.

Her last calf was a bull calf sired by SAV Harvestor, Is he big? Yup! is he thick YUP! is there any funny business going on, NOPE!

I feel bad for Byergo and for Universal because people can be very impressionable and skim over this forum and see the main subject line and be quick to make a rash judgment on an operation when the underlying facts are not true at all. As I have said before. I spoke with Bryson Byergo about Black Magic, Titus, and Boomer. He took time out of his day to discuss the bulls and their operation. He did not sell me hard on Titus, nor promise me the world, he answered questions, and thoroughly at that, hardly the situation that would go down if someone were a fly by night operation.

 

[elkwc]

I've always understood that the Angus association was lije Herefords and do parentage test only but not a purity test. I've had breeders tell me thar.

 

[Lazy M]

Knowing what I know about Angus pedigrees I would say that Black Magic represents his pedigree very well. If you want traditional breed character he is not your bull. If you want growthy progeny that have more terminal character he is your bull. Different bulls for different purposes. I haven't seen any Conversion sons that sire what I would call maternal looking cattle.

I agree, with careful breeding you can have a thick, soggy bull, that looks like a tank. People will be quick to say "that's not Angus!" but they are wrong, very wrong. I have some registered Angus cows that are big 1850-2000 pounds, terminal CED, long and thick, but not overly tall. I can breed them to a bull like Stevenson Big League (reputable ranch right!) and can almost assure you that if it's a bull, he is going to look like what I'm describing above, and they will be FULL ANGUS, no Sim influence.

Take a look at this cow we have, she has a -6 CED, weighs about 1880 pounds and is almost 5 years old. She has Basin influence, an operation I trust, and she has multiple generations down on her dam side on our operation.



She is settled right now to SAV Supercharger, but if she was bred to the bull I mentioned above, Stevenson Big League, and had a bull calf, I can virtually assure you, he would be a BIG, SOGGY, bull, and ALL Angus.

Her last calf was a bull calf sired by SAV Harvestor, Is he big? Yup! is he thick YUP! is there any funny business going on, NOPE!

I feel bad for Byergo and for Universal because people can be very impressionable and skim over this forum and see the main subject line and be quick to make a rash judgment on an operation when the underlying facts are not true at all. As I have said before. I spoke with Bryson Byergo about Black Magic, Titus, and Boomer. He took time out of his day to discuss the bulls and their operation. He did not sell me hard on Titus, nor promise me the world, he answered questions, and thoroughly at that, hardly the situation that would go down if someone were a fly by night operation.

You bred the cow with a -6 CED to bulls also with below breed avg CED? I'm curious why you don't try to balance her EPD with the bull mating.

I like big cows, but a 1800+# cow had better be weaning calves that weigh over 800# or she is just a fat POS.

 

[NEFarmwife]

We used 30 straws of Blackstone (Magic's son) on our second calf heifers.

Tonight at the barn, my FIL said "I'm really liking those blackstone calves. They're the nicest ones we have as a group."

If they grow like they're suppose to, we'll have some good fats this year.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Here is her son, out of SAV Harvestor a -2 CED bull, the calf in this photo is exactly 159 days old, no creep feeder, just grass and milk, and a few bites that he would get out of the bunk feeder while the cows are eating a small ration of grain daily. In other words, he is not being stuffed with feed. If I had him on a creep feeder with a high protein mix, I could have had him significantly bigger than he was in this photo. We really like SAV Harvestor, but I have sons of SAV International (Harvestor's son) under development, and they seem to be gaining even faster than the SAV Harvestor son.



As for balancing things out. My philosophy is this, I will AI our heifers to bulls that are +3 or above, after a heifer has had her first calf, and didn't have any issues, I breed them to terminal bulls like SAV Harvestor or SAV International. I'm getting ready to breed 10 cows, all of them over 1800 pounds to SAV Net Worth 4200 during January and February as well. It's been my experience, and I'm not being a wise a...s when I say this, but a big bull like Net Worth bred to a big solid cow (1800-2000 pounds) is not going to produce something puny, and in my experience, the results have been much to my liking. I get plenty of calves from the heifers that are not terminal so that's not an issue, they are really good animals, but a daughter out of International or Harvestor is a prize. I have daughters from Harvestor and International and they are built like tanks, I have no doubt they will become big producers for us in the future.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Here is her son, out of SAV Harvestor a -2 CED bull, the calf in this photo is exactly 159 days old, no creep feeder, just grass and milk, and a few bites that he would get out of the bunk feeder while the cows are eating a small ration of grain daily. In other words, he is not being stuffed with feed. If I had him on a creep feeder with a high protein mix, I could have had him significantly bigger than he was in this photo. We really like SAV Harvestor, but I have sons of SAV International (Harvestor's son) under development, and they seem to be gaining even faster than the SAV Harvestor son.



As for balancing things out. My philosophy is this, I will AI our heifers to bulls that are +3 or above, after a heifer has had her first calf, and didn't have any issues, I breed them to terminal bulls like SAV Harvestor or SAV International. I'm getting ready to breed 10 cows, all of them over 1800 pounds to SAV Net Worth 4200 during January and February as well. It's been my experience, and I'm not being a wise a...s when I say this, but a big bull like Net Worth bred to a big solid cow (1800-2000 pounds) is not going to produce something puny, and in my experience, the results have been much to my liking. I get plenty of calves from the heifers that are not terminal so that's not an issue, they are really good animals, but a daughter out of International or Harvestor is a prize. I have daughters from Harvestor and International and they are built like tanks, I have no doubt they will become big producers for us in the future.

I think I've said this before but our herd is built out of International and Harvestor daughters.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[/quote]

I think I've said this before but our herd is built out of International and Harvestor daughters.[/quote]

Then you know what I'm talking about. I've had offers on the females out of both, sight unseen, to purchase whatever we have at weaning. I can't say that for other sires. Harvestor has 557 DNA proven progeny registered at Angus Assoc, SAV International has 822 DNA proven progeny with Angus Assoc. If you assume that half are male and half are female, that makes those gals a pretty rare commodity.

Here is a son we have from SAV International 2020 at 82 days of age. I used this photo because it was back when we didn't have mud everywhere, a long, long time ago! Ha.



This photo is of another one of our SAV International 2020 sons at 63 days old.

 

[Lazy M]

Here is her son, out of SAV Harvestor a -2 CED bull, the calf in this photo is exactly 159 days old, no creep feeder, just grass and milk, and a few bites that he would get out of the bunk feeder while the cows are eating a small ration of grain daily. In other words, he is not being stuffed with feed. If I had him on a creep feeder with a high protein mix, I could have had him significantly bigger than he was in this photo. We really like SAV Harvestor, but I have sons of SAV International (Harvestor's son) under development, and they seem to be gaining even faster than the SAV Harvestor son.



As for balancing things out. My philosophy is this, I will AI our heifers to bulls that are +3 or above, after a heifer has had her first calf, and didn't have any issues, I breed them to terminal bulls like SAV Harvestor or SAV International. I'm getting ready to breed 10 cows, all of them over 1800 pounds to SAV Net Worth 4200 during January and February as well. It's been my experience, and I'm not being a wise a...s when I say this, but a big bull like Net Worth bred to a big solid cow (1800-2000 pounds) is not going to produce something puny, and in my experience, the results have been much to my liking. I get plenty of calves from the heifers that are not terminal so that's not an issue, they are really good animals, but a daughter out of International or Harvestor is a prize. I have daughters from Harvestor and International and they are built like tanks, I have no doubt they will become big producers for us in the future.

I just wonder if there's any concern with stacking low CE/high BW cattle. My opinion: Angus is a maternal oriented breed. I see no reason for seedstock producers to produce terminal Angus stock. Rather, they should strive to balance traits to provide sires that will produce functional, fertile cattle for commercial operations. Nothing's wrong with using the Harvestor and International and Net Worth (watch out for docility issues) bulls to improve the performance of overly-thrifty cattle, but it seems to me that you are putting gas on an already raging fire.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you look at SAV Harvestor, he is the product of SAV Heritage, a -5 CED bull, and SAV Emblynette 7749, a -4 CED cow. here is the description on Herbster's website, and I can say without exaggeration that Harvestor delivers the goods.

"SAV Harvestor, our $275,000 Angus sensation, is a true breed changer and performance powerhouse. He has no equal among all proven sires in the Angus breed for performance and real beef value. This has been documented in many large commercial and purebred herds. Harvestor progeny are stamped with breed character and built right from the ground up. They are perfect in their structure, with massive thickness, volume and expressive muscle shape. His sons are loaded with performance and substance, while his daughters are feminine with beautiful udders and added dimension to make real brood cows. Kelly Schaff says, "Harvestor's progeny dominate the ground they walk on and come with the highest recommendation to real-world cowmen. His powerful sons have been well received in our past sales, as well as in sales across the globe."

SAV sells a lot of bulls each year with high demand, including other countries. I trust their program, and they have no problem breeding terminal to terminal. The calf above was 97 pounds at birth, was born in minutes with no issues, and has never looked back.

Would I breed Harvestor to a small framed cow? Yes, if she were healthy, and was on a good nutrition program. People freak out about a 97 pound calf versus a 65 pounder. I personally like big calves, and have no problem with them. In Kentucky, too many people chase low birthweight and extremely high calving ease numbers. They are ending up with females that one highly respected cattleman told me "couldn't give birth to a jackrabbit!" I think Angus are naturally calving ease, and in my experience, we could probably use a terminal bull on our heifers and they would be fine, but then again our heifers are big gals. What I'm doing is not going to be right for everyone. I'm using SAV Elation on some heifers right now, he is +1 CED, but the gals that he is bred to are about 1350 pounds with about 2 months until they calve. I'm not expecting any problems. I'm not faulting anyone else's program or breeding decisions, but I don't choose sires based solely on high CED and low birthweights.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[/quote] I see no reason for seedstock producers to produce terminal Angus stock. Rather, they should strive to balance traits to provide sires that will produce functional, fertile cattle for commercial operations. Nothing's wrong with using the Harvestor and International and Net Worth (watch out for docility issues) bulls to improve the performance of overly-thrifty cattle, but it seems to me that you are putting gas on an already raging fire.[/quote][/color]

One of our International calves, BH International 973 (AAA #19193579) has the following genomically enhanced EPD's

WW, RADG, DMI in the top 15% of the breed
Heifer Preg at top 25% of the breed
Carcass Weight EPD at top 25% of the breed
$B at top 10% of the breed.

Unless I'm missing something, those numbers will most likely translate into some respectable steers and heifers. I know that there are bulls with better numbers, I'm not trying to make this a pis...ng contest, I'm just saying that this son of International has it where it matters, and he would definitely improve the average commercial cowherd.