Lost my second calf of the year this morning that was butt first feet down. Had to call the vet on this one, I just didn't have time to fool with it. This is not a common problem for me. I hate when I can't handle a problem. Makes you feel like a double loser.-------Dead calf, and vet bill.
Butt first feet down
- Thread starter Bigfoot
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
A
Anonymous
Ouch. Cow ok?
J&D Cattle
Well-known member
I'd agree, the calf is bad and then the second kick in the nuts a month or so later when you get the bill. Hope the cow is doing ok and good luck with the rest of them.
inyati13
Well-known member
Bigfoot, please tell us what the vet did. I recently read two articles by two different vets who specilize in calf delivery. If I can find them again, I will provide references but one of the experts stated that a butt first presentation while not desirable is still a deliverable calf. He also stated that one of the most common problems in delivering calves is pulling the calf prematurely. He said that you should be sure the cervix is fully dialated before pulling on a calf. He described how to do that. He stated that no more force than that applied by one man should ever be needed unless the calf is undeliverable in which case it has to be removed in pieces or c-section.
Found one, in Angus Beef Bulletin, Jan 2013, Bob Larson, Kansas State U. Cannot find the other one yet but seem like it was a vet out of Idaho. The other one is the one that said a butt first presentation is a deliverable calf if done right.
Found it, Dr James England U of Idaho. Stated, "A calf coming back feet first is not a mal-presentation, because it can be born. These backward calves can be born, unless the tail is cocked up..."
PS. Bigfoot, I understand that you were not saying that the calf was undeliverable. I added this to provide more discussion.
Found one, in Angus Beef Bulletin, Jan 2013, Bob Larson, Kansas State U. Cannot find the other one yet but seem like it was a vet out of Idaho. The other one is the one that said a butt first presentation is a deliverable calf if done right.
Found it, Dr James England U of Idaho. Stated, "A calf coming back feet first is not a mal-presentation, because it can be born. These backward calves can be born, unless the tail is cocked up..."
PS. Bigfoot, I understand that you were not saying that the calf was undeliverable. I added this to provide more discussion.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
The calf is a easy pull if the feet are out. Not so easy when the feet are down.
inyati13
Well-known member
Thanks, Red Bull Breeder.
OP
OP
Bigfoot
Well-known member
Inyati,
I wasn't there, unless he did something out of the ordinary--------shot in the tail to keep her from pushing. Pushed it back in. Got it oriented right then pulled it.
I knew it was dead when I called them. If your going to have them, your going to lose them. The good Lord giveth and the good Lord taketh away.
I wasn't there, unless he did something out of the ordinary--------shot in the tail to keep her from pushing. Pushed it back in. Got it oriented right then pulled it.
I knew it was dead when I called them. If your going to have them, your going to lose them. The good Lord giveth and the good Lord taketh away.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Only person to never lose a cow or a calf is the person who never owned one.
chippie
Well-known member
I'm sorry Bigfoot. It sure is disappointing to lose one. Happy that the cow will be OK.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
inyati,
A true breech presentation, which is what Bigfoot described, cannot be delivered as presented - OK, maybe if it's a 1600+# cow delivering a 35# calf - but, i most instances, it's a physical impossibility, regardless of whether the cervix is dilated or not.
In general, we have to administer an epidural anesthetic injection to stop the cow pushing against us, repel the calf as best we can to retrieve the hind feet, and deliver them 'backwards'. It's virtually impossible to actually 'turn' the calf to do a normal head/front feet-first delivery; I wouldn't even attempt that.
I suppose it could be done without an epidural, but I'd hate to think about having to try it...
Often these breech-presentation calves are already dead before the owner notices anything, because the cow's been 'in labor' for some time, but because the calf can't engage the cervix and pelvic structures, the cow doesn't really 'get down to business', put on a noticeable abdominal press, etc. Have delivered some live breech calves through the years, but a significant percentage were already dead by the time the producer noticed 'em.
A true breech presentation, which is what Bigfoot described, cannot be delivered as presented - OK, maybe if it's a 1600+# cow delivering a 35# calf - but, i most instances, it's a physical impossibility, regardless of whether the cervix is dilated or not.
In general, we have to administer an epidural anesthetic injection to stop the cow pushing against us, repel the calf as best we can to retrieve the hind feet, and deliver them 'backwards'. It's virtually impossible to actually 'turn' the calf to do a normal head/front feet-first delivery; I wouldn't even attempt that.
I suppose it could be done without an epidural, but I'd hate to think about having to try it...
Often these breech-presentation calves are already dead before the owner notices anything, because the cow's been 'in labor' for some time, but because the calf can't engage the cervix and pelvic structures, the cow doesn't really 'get down to business', put on a noticeable abdominal press, etc. Have delivered some live breech calves through the years, but a significant percentage were already dead by the time the producer noticed 'em.
Lucky_P":1k9xk7el said:
Good post.
The bolded part is why I call a vet for a tail first presentation, I don't have the meds for an epidural. You're a vet, aren't you Lucky?
We've had 3 in the last 15 years, 2 were twin pregnancies. All 3 of the tail first calves were dead. 1 of the twin calves was delivered fine, and the mother was fine. We lost the other two cows, probably because we waited too long to help.
snake67
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2011
- Messages
- 978
- Reaction score
- 1
Bigfoot":2pk61z4b said:
Bigfoot - hope you do not mind me jumping your thread - but this might be good for some newb some day.
Bez's rules of thumb - and yes, there are exceptions - but for the person who runs two or three cows - you should read and think a bit on this.
Butt first, feet down - disaster - total blockage - not too many here could deal with that. A real breach - going to be a bad day for the calf, the cow and you. Call the vet unless you can work the calf or do your own C-sections. Do not wait!
Backwards - upside down or right side up with one hind foot out - one foot back - potential disaster - going to be a bad day for the cow, the calf and you - not too many here could deal with that. Partial breach. Call the vet - same as one for most people. Do not wait!
Backward - right side up or right side down - feet out - leave it be for a bit - likely going to be ok - help only as required. Far more common than many realize. If pulling backward calf right side up - pull out and down. If pulling backward calf upside down - not going to be pretty but try to lift and pull if you can. Or if you are unsure - call the vet. Do not wait! (Be real nice if the cow laid down for this one as you will have your work cut out for you)
In all backwards cases - I hope for you all that the tail is not up - but if it is you can cut it off pretty easy if required - or break it so it lays flat - yeah, it will actually heal later - if the calf lives.
Normal / almost normal presentations - looking for head and two feet alongside the head.
You see the nose and one leg. It is not going to be born. Push the head back in and find the other leg. If you do not know how to do this call the vet asap - this calf might make it.
You see the head and no legs. It is not going to be born. Push the head back in and find both legs. If you do not know how to do this call the vet asap - this calf might make it.
You see both legs and the head - proper presentation - go grab a coffee and sit back and watch - stay a long ways back - your presence is an interference and intrusion and will possibly delay the whole thing - if she can get it done in under an hour all is well - if she stops with the feet hanging out and starts to graze - relax - schitte happens - she needs a break - and you are quite probably the reason.
I am sure I have missed some things and such is life - but the above are what can happen - some are rare and some are common.
If you do not have the telephone numbers of at least two vets close by and you are not set up with a chute, a squeeze and proper restraints - you are the person who is taking the risk. Lots of home made outfits work fine - but if you need that vet at 0200 you better know he will come when you call.
Have fun - and remember - when you lose one it is not the end of the world so whining is not allowed - if it was easy and guaranteed then everyone would be doing it.
Love the "sorry for your loss" comments we often see when someone loses a cow or calf. You would think someone lost a family member - remember, we raise them to kill them - so I will go with this one in closing:
"Bigfoot - I am sorry your bank account took a hit - as you know schitte happens - but maybe the next one will live!"
Best to all
Bez
chippie
Well-known member
Bez, to me the sorry for the loss means sorry for the hit in the pocketbook - loss of income.
inyati13
Well-known member
Bez, good information. It will make a person think. I have a permanent setup with sweep, alley, pal cage, and squeeze chute. I am starting the routine of calving in the crowding pen which leads the cattle to the sweep. It is clean, has a covered area and wind breaks. But if by circumstances, the cow is down away from the facility, is it normal to be able to stop a delivery, get the cow up and walk her to the facility? I move my cows with feed. It works very well but if a cow is in labor, will leading her with feed still work? I am assuming the recommended practice is to have your cow where you can assist her.
Had this very thing happen last night. I heard the vet say breech as he went in. Calf is live but mom wants nothing to do with it. We are working on that now. Using the molassas on the calf trick to hopefully get her licking the calf. I had to give calf some colosturm replacer last night because I knew the mom was not going to let the calf on her then. We are going to get back in the barn now and get teh calf to suck. That might help mom's hormones to get busy being a mom. Cow's 3rd calf FYI.
