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irked

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there is something else that really irks me.

let's consider this a brief lesson. let's call it something that will make it easy for some of you beginners and hobbyists to remember. cattle production 101 should be easy enough for all of you to remember. after all, learning about cattle production is why many of us are gathered here together on the beginners forum. now, within cattle production 101 we will have what i shall refer to as the m&m principle.

this m&m principle is of the utmost importance and i chose to call it that because some of you probably make more informed choices about your candy than you do your breeding decisions. so, if it helps you to become better cattle producers, think of candy. more importantly, think m&m's.

this principle is proven true by many of you on a daily basis. the pictures that you post both here and on the breeds forum are a testimony to the validity of this principle. i suspect that your checks from the auction barn would lend added validity to this principle.

beginners and hobbyists need to buy good bulls too. commercial cattlemen can fudge to some extent within the cowherd. quality in phenotype can be overlooked to some degree in the brood cow to be sure that we have a cowherd that is adapted environmentally to our area. in other words, in a commercial operation, the ugly little cow that works for us can still be profitable. she doesn't have to be a front pasture type of cow to earn her keep for a commercial operator.

not so with bull selection. bulls must be selected that will complement those cows to produce offspring to fit a market. either a market for feeder calves or replacement females. (keeping in mind that one of the markets for replacement females might just be the market that we make within our own herd for those replacements.)

in either case, feeder cattle or replacements, the bull is of the utmost importance. bull selection allows us to run the type of low input females that work in our environments and still produce a calf that will excel in the market that we have previously determined. with this in mind, bull selection should be accorded much more thought so that he will complement all that we have within the cowherd. the bull has to complement both the pretty cow and the ugly cow. working at selecting for this complement is what helps us to achieve that goal of producing something to fit that predetermined market.

it's clear to me that some of you aren't aware of that relationship. it's clear that some of you think that freshening a cow is all it takes to be a big time cattle producer. I see some pictures here this morning that really makes me think some of you buy bulls off of the packers truck. that really irks me.

maybe you think you get a bargain? not in the long run. not for yourself and surely not for the rest of us who are serious about producing cattle. all of you must remember that feeder cattle of poor genotype are oftentimes poorly performing cattle. those poorly performing cattle take capital out of the cattle industry. that is why your poor breeding decisions become my business too.


let's conclude for the day by reviewing the m&m principle:

mongrels & mutts beget mongrels & mutts
 
I run a herd of black angus cows. You decide what bull I need, buy it, and ship it to me.

THEN my breeding decisions will be some of your business.

Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, did we ?? :tiphat:
 
you are so right in what you are saying.but lets not forget beginners an hobby farmers cant afford giving $2000 to $4000 or more for herd bulls.so they buy what they think looks good to them.an that they can afford.because most times they only have 8 or 10 cows.so we as reg breeders need to price our bulls where anyone can afford them.personally i wont keep a herd bull prosect unless he is a top bull calf.an when i keep them my starting price is $1500 on them.an thats at 15 to 16 months old.
 
bigbull338":ieljnpia said:
you are so right in what you are saying.but lets not forget beginners an hobby farmers cant afford giving $2000 to $4000 or more for herd bulls.so they buy what they think looks good to them.an that they can afford.because most times they only have 8 or 10 cows.so we as reg breeders need to price our bulls where anyone can afford them.personally i wont keep a herd bull prosect unless he is a top bull calf.an when i keep them my starting price is $1500 on them.an thats at 15 to 16 months old.

Another part of the equation is some don;t know what to look for in a bull, or a cow either for that matter. That's the reason they post pictures. Not necesarrily because they;re proud of them, they honestly want to know so they can learn.
 
i agree dun we should try to help them learn.not put them down for the cattle they have or the pics they post.but you can be so rough on people they get disscouraged.an that does no one any good.
 
Rome wan't built in a day. Neither are cow herds. That young $1,500 bull for sale is the result of many years of good breeding and definitely not the first one that hit the ground in the program. You can breed a jack a$$ to a triple crown winner but the odds of ever getting a winning race horse are slim to none. Last I "herd" the calf will get half it's genes from it's mama.
 
Hey Irked,

I consider myself new so,,,,,,,, why not post some pictures and teach us green horns exactly what it takes!!!! I am not so proud of myself,,,, but rather am glad to learn from someone who knows. I am serious,,, I am not just making fun of you. I always use the best bull I can afford.
However it is also easy to get absolutely screwed buying a bull if you just listen to the seller.

That is partially why I am on here........maybe learn a few things!!!!
So you won't offend me with info...

I would like to add in a nice fashion if possible.... don't get mad if you are not willing to teach!?

Thanks
 
Here is my $.02

The going figure around here is that a good bull on good flat relativley small pasture can cover about 30-35 cows, sometimes 40. I have seen intensive grazing on pivots where 41 has been hit but thats deff the high end. safer to say about 30-35 cows per bull in this scenario.

We run about 20 cows per bull because of the type of mountain pasture we run on during breeeding season and this would be the case in most mountain/range scenarios with large pastures.

It would be my opinion that if someone is running less than 15 cows they need to AI, reguardless of breed. If I personally had 20 cows that would be the breaking point for me and I would go buy a good 3-4 year old bull for Around $1500. Someone mentioned that hobby folks or begginers cant spend 2000-4000 on a good bull. On the same token they cant afford to spend money on a crapper bull either because your calf crop will be under par and you will be stuck with a 2000lb paper weight. I hope no one if fooled into believeing that you CANNOT get a solid bull for $1500. for the begginer there should be two different types of bulls, heifer bulls and cow bulls. Heifers being low BW epd and good calving ease versus the growth type of bulls that cows need and can handle. If you are a novice dont be shy go to a few sales and see what prices are and talk to people at the sale. The number one biggest thing I must must must recommend is dont be afriad to ask, you will never learn if you dont ask. I am only 21 and I have pretty much devoted my whole life to the family place and having my own someday and I know my biggest downfall is knowledge and experience at this point and trying to finish college as we speak. I ask questions, go to sales and talk with everyone I possibly can every chance I get,I know I am green. Knowledge is power and so is confidence so dont post pictures on here after you have bought a bull with a timid question such as "what do you think" It doesnt matter what we think on here, it matters if you are happy and if he will work for you and fit into your program. I would much rather see someone post pictures of a new bull and say "here look at this one, I am gonna use him for this this and this, and he is gonna be perfect for what we need". Another work of advice, always always always be happy with what you buy at a sale and never have regrets. Thats why it is upsetting to see people post pictures on here after a sale and then ask what people think, its disheartening.

Bull buying a is a pain in the rear, you gotta feed them year round, they can get injured, they can break down fast. they can have poor libido, they might just wonna fight all the time. Buying from a local bull producer is the best idea for a newbi versus buying a no name bull from the sale IMo/

Another great way to get some bull information is to call the Semen guys like ABS or select sire or others and tell them what kind of cows you have and they will help you pick out bulls that will benifit you the best. Take that knowledge from the these guys over the phone and go to some bull sales and see what you can come up with.

Just a few thoughts...
 
man your on a good roll.but you need to put the pencile to your thoughts before you speak.an heres why.you say the small cattlemen with 15 cows should AI.have you figured those costs.well heres you a crash course on this costs.semen tank an AI course $2000.semen for 15 cows 50 straws $1250.lets not forget keeping the jugg charged.an then you have to watch for heats.be mindful i know of the things i speak.ive figurede things like this for 35yrs.so a small cattlemen can spend $2000 or less on bull.an spead that cost over 3 or 4yrs.depending on if they retain any of the heifers.
 
As I have said on here before............

Go to one or more reputable breeders' and have them assess your needs according to what you want your program to do.

Tell him to send you the best bull for your needs and budget.

He will be pressed to send you a good bull because his reputation is at stake and he will generally deliver you a better bull than what you paid for.

No one knows a bull better than the man that raised him.

Occasionally he might miss, but much less often than an unexperienced buyer would.
 
Around here the small guys get togethar and do all of their as the same time. You do not need a tank and you sure as heck shouldnt need a 50 straws for 15 cows. Get a bunch of buddies with a few cows get no more than 2 straws per cow and get a local experienced breeder to help you guys out. Plus your premium from those calves will bring top $$$ as the people you are buying your calves will know exactly what they are getting.

If you cant hit atleast 60-70% AI thats pretty good. burnin money if you are only at 50%. The pain and the headache of owning a bull for just a few cows isnt worth it plus all the feed for a year and so on. So I am told.

Around here the small guys get togethar and make it work and help one another, I dont know why it would have to be any different anywhere else.
 
One could try and lease a bull. Profit Maker Genetics has a lese sale every year. You get a bull, use it and they take it back. Sometimes it cost alot to do this but it is an option.
 
so your telling me you can settle a cow on 1.5 services.when the ave is 2.2 services pre conception.around here youd get hung bigtime if you waited on neighbors to AI your cows.because everyone stays busy.an its not a good idea tobe hauling the jugg from farm to farm.most likely will cause the jugg to go bad.
 
No two operations are the same, what works for over here may not work down there and vice versa. Each person finding what works the best and most economic for their situation is all anyone can do. Part of running an operation is finding and knowing costs and overheads. Anyone who doesnt do this is in for a big hurtin. Thats all I was gettin at.....
 
bigbull338":221ruqgh said:
so your telling me you can settle a cow on 1.5 services.when the ave is 2.2 services pre conception
YES 65-70% first try

bigbull338":221ruqgh said:
semen tank an AI course $2000.semen for 15 cows 50 straws $1250.
You can get a decent tank for $550(I asked abs about one last week)I don't know how much the course is but you should ask to take it agine or demand a refund if it takes you 50 straws to breed 15 cows.

If you have 15 comm. cows a bull may be your best bet you probably work away from home. Checking heats and breeding may not be worth your time but thats for you to figure out.A Bull also has a value at the sale barn.
 
You'll waste enough money on a tank, semen and an AI Tech to make a pretty good downpayment on a very good bull. (Get that $1500 bull mentioned in a previous post) And if you take the AI course you spend even more on semen because the first few months you might as well squirt it on the ground. You may stick 1 cow out of 15. Get the bull and when all cows are confirmed bred sell him. You can take a pretty good loss on him and still come out ahead.
 
you must be living in a prefect world if you think that.an heres why 15 cows 1/2 conceive thats 7 cows.8 on 2nd heat 4 conceive.4 to breed 2 conceive.2 left to breed 1 conceive.thats 4 or 5 breedings.wich means your days open would be 160 to 200 days to get all cows bred AI.
 

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