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Breeding / Calving Issues
Bulls....How long can a good one last?
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<blockquote data-quote="Lucky_P" data-source="post: 675261" data-attributes="member: 12607"><p>You're free to disagree. </p><p>I've been in the beef cattle business for over 40 years. I won't be 'OUT of the business soon' just because I bred a bull back to his daughters, and I'm not breeding for the 'freak show'. If and when I get out, it'll be because I'm too old & decrepit to fool with 'em anymore.</p><p>Some folks attach too many human societal taboos to animal breeding, and it's pretty evident that most people - and I don't mean just on this board - don't really have any realistic understanding of inbreeding or linebreeding. It would be worth your while to read Jim Lents' book, 'The Basis of Linebreeding', or to hunt up some of Larry Leonhardt's writings, such as those on the Shoshone Angus website - <a href="http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html" target="_blank">http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html</a></p><p></p><p>I'm not a purebred seedstock producer, just a commercial cow-calf man, though I've had a few old registered Simmental cows through the years(just sent the last old 19-yr old Generation III cow off to the locker plant a couple of weeks back -she was a good one, but I kept her one year too many, trying for 'one more' good calf. She's feeding folks at the Salvation Army soup kitchen now).</p><p></p><p> I'm a food-animal veterinarian/veterinary pathologist. I know more than a little bit about genetics, genetic defects, inbreeding suppression, etc., - so I'm aware that if an undesirable gene is present, breeding closely-related individuals will increase the likelihood that it will be expressed - but at the same time, inbreeding/linebreeding can be used to concentrate the genes that code for desirable traits. It's how ALL of the breeds we now know were originally developed.</p><p> </p><p>In the vast majority of instances, whether you're a commercial or purebred operation, there's little downside to breeding a bull back to his daughters - if you like the bull and the traits you selected him for, and he's passed them on to his daughters, you're just maximizing those desirables by practicing some in-herd inbreeding. Really, outside of the possibility of recessive defects, the only significant downside is from narrow-minded people who might look at the pedigree and get their panties in a wad about (gasp!) 'inbreeding', and shy away from what you've produced. </p><p>If you look at pedigrees for many bulls in many breed associations, you'll see specific animals or family lines appearing time after time. How many Angus bulls have EXT, 6807, Scotch Cap, etc. multiple times in their ancestry? How about 600U, Black Mick, Black Irish Kansas, Siegfried, Doubletime and now, Dream On, etc., in the Simmental breed?</p><p></p><p>I think it's CRAZY for a small commercial beef producer with just a few cows who may only need one bull at a time, to be buying a new bull every two years - you're not 'getting your money's worth' out of that bull purchase, and you don't really know for sure what you have(or had) before you get rid of him. If he's good, he's worth breeding back to his daughters; if he's not, then put some wheels under him and bring in something different.</p><p>Just my $.02</p><p>Flame on, y'all.</p><p></p><p></p><p>RD-Sam brought up GAR Precision 1680 in the Angus breed. As we understand it now, the NH mutation seems to have occurred in 1680 - he didn't inherit it from any ancestor. But, he did inherit the AM (curly calf) gene from his maternal grandsire Rito 9J9 - who appears to be the 'point source' for that undesirable recessive gene mutation. So...1680 carried two separate recessive defects, and yes, repeated matings of 1680 descendents(but even that wasn't really linebreeding, and coefficients of inbreeding were pretty low) increased the impact of these genetic defects in that breed - and the problem was worsened by 'hushing up' of reports of defective calves for several years, while these defects were increasingly spread throughout the breed by folks chasing those 'carcass' numbers 1680 and his offspring were touted for. </p><p>I'm currently breeding my SimAngus cows to Angus bulls, but I'm staying away from lines with AM, NH, or the spectre of FCS in them for the time being - even 1680 descendents that are AM-free(the NH and FCS tests are still not validated) don't hold much appeal for me - those extreme growth/negative $EN bulls are not what I'm looking for to swing my herd back toward more efficient cows that don't require tons of extra feed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lucky_P, post: 675261, member: 12607"] You're free to disagree. I've been in the beef cattle business for over 40 years. I won't be 'OUT of the business soon' just because I bred a bull back to his daughters, and I'm not breeding for the 'freak show'. If and when I get out, it'll be because I'm too old & decrepit to fool with 'em anymore. Some folks attach too many human societal taboos to animal breeding, and it's pretty evident that most people - and I don't mean just on this board - don't really have any realistic understanding of inbreeding or linebreeding. It would be worth your while to read Jim Lents' book, 'The Basis of Linebreeding', or to hunt up some of Larry Leonhardt's writings, such as those on the Shoshone Angus website - [url=http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html]http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home.html[/url] I'm not a purebred seedstock producer, just a commercial cow-calf man, though I've had a few old registered Simmental cows through the years(just sent the last old 19-yr old Generation III cow off to the locker plant a couple of weeks back -she was a good one, but I kept her one year too many, trying for 'one more' good calf. She's feeding folks at the Salvation Army soup kitchen now). I'm a food-animal veterinarian/veterinary pathologist. I know more than a little bit about genetics, genetic defects, inbreeding suppression, etc., - so I'm aware that if an undesirable gene is present, breeding closely-related individuals will increase the likelihood that it will be expressed - but at the same time, inbreeding/linebreeding can be used to concentrate the genes that code for desirable traits. It's how ALL of the breeds we now know were originally developed. In the vast majority of instances, whether you're a commercial or purebred operation, there's little downside to breeding a bull back to his daughters - if you like the bull and the traits you selected him for, and he's passed them on to his daughters, you're just maximizing those desirables by practicing some in-herd inbreeding. Really, outside of the possibility of recessive defects, the only significant downside is from narrow-minded people who might look at the pedigree and get their panties in a wad about (gasp!) 'inbreeding', and shy away from what you've produced. If you look at pedigrees for many bulls in many breed associations, you'll see specific animals or family lines appearing time after time. How many Angus bulls have EXT, 6807, Scotch Cap, etc. multiple times in their ancestry? How about 600U, Black Mick, Black Irish Kansas, Siegfried, Doubletime and now, Dream On, etc., in the Simmental breed? I think it's CRAZY for a small commercial beef producer with just a few cows who may only need one bull at a time, to be buying a new bull every two years - you're not 'getting your money's worth' out of that bull purchase, and you don't really know for sure what you have(or had) before you get rid of him. If he's good, he's worth breeding back to his daughters; if he's not, then put some wheels under him and bring in something different. Just my $.02 Flame on, y'all. RD-Sam brought up GAR Precision 1680 in the Angus breed. As we understand it now, the NH mutation seems to have occurred in 1680 - he didn't inherit it from any ancestor. But, he did inherit the AM (curly calf) gene from his maternal grandsire Rito 9J9 - who appears to be the 'point source' for that undesirable recessive gene mutation. So...1680 carried two separate recessive defects, and yes, repeated matings of 1680 descendents(but even that wasn't really linebreeding, and coefficients of inbreeding were pretty low) increased the impact of these genetic defects in that breed - and the problem was worsened by 'hushing up' of reports of defective calves for several years, while these defects were increasingly spread throughout the breed by folks chasing those 'carcass' numbers 1680 and his offspring were touted for. I'm currently breeding my SimAngus cows to Angus bulls, but I'm staying away from lines with AM, NH, or the spectre of FCS in them for the time being - even 1680 descendents that are AM-free(the NH and FCS tests are still not validated) don't hold much appeal for me - those extreme growth/negative $EN bulls are not what I'm looking for to swing my herd back toward more efficient cows that don't require tons of extra feed. [/QUOTE]
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