bull w/no calves--what do you do?

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Anonymous

situation: you sell a registered bull that you had previously used & had calves out of. two years later, the buyer calls & says he hasn't had any calves out of the bull (has calves but says they are from neighbors bull).

for all you seedstock producers: "what would you do?" & for anyone who purchases seedstock "what would you want to be done?"

ok, before you start, yes, one option would be to have him tested, but he could test ok & just not be servicing cows. so, either you test & he's ok or you test & he's not, what do you do?
 
OP
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Anonymous

I can’t imagine somebody running a bull for two years with no calves and then deciding to call the seller and complain. Sounds to me like somebody is full of it, or they are trying to snooker you. I sure wouldn’t take them seriously unless there were extenuating circumstances that would cause it to make business sense to give them the time of day.

Craig-TX
 
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Anonymous

Two years is an awful long time for that situation to persist!

But you are certainly correct in that you can have a bull that passes a BSE with flying colors and he still doesn't get the cows bred. Unfortunately, they can't test for libido. But in your case that doesn't sound like it could be the situation, if you are certain that particular bull was the sire of calves you got(although it is possible that the bull may have developed a problem after siring your calves). Your customer may be peeing in your boot and trying to tell you its raining!

I had a somewhat similar experience with a young virgin bull I bought at a special bull auction some years ago. He had passed the BSE just fine but I suspected something was wrong when, after 3 or 4 months worth of trips out to my place to feed, count cows, monitor, etc. I never once saw him mount a cow, do the sniff and lip curl routine, etc. Sure enough I got precious few calves out of him, if any, before I sent him packing. The calves I did get could have been from my neighbor's bull, who had never before come across the fence but felt compelled to do so when I had this particular bull. And no, it wasn't a problem of fertility or disease with all the cows.
 
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Anonymous

a little clarification: we've been in the business for many years & as in many businesses, reputation is important. luckily we haven't had many problems with bulls sold and have had lots of repeat customers. we did have someone want to bring a bull back once because his neighbor didn't have a bull and had about twenty heifers cycling & the bull wouldn't stay home. of course this was after the bull had bred all of his cows. in the previously mentioned scenario and the one above, we made good on the bulls. i was just kind of curious what other responses would be. keep 'em coming!
 
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Anonymous

> Two years is an awful long time
> for that situation to persist!

> But you are certainly correct in
> that you can have a bull that
> passes a BSE with flying colors
> and he still doesn't get the cows
> bred. Unfortunately, they can't
> test for libido. But in your case
> that doesn't sound like it could
> be the situation, if you are
> certain that particular bull was
> the sire of calves you
> got(although it is possible that
> the bull may have developed a
> problem after siring your calves).
> Your customer may be peeing in
> your boot and trying to tell you
> its raining!

> I had a somewhat similar
> experience with a young virgin
> bull I bought at a special bull
> auction some years ago. He had
> passed the BSE just fine but I
> suspected something was wrong
> when, after 3 or 4 months worth of
> trips out to my place to feed,
> count cows, monitor, etc. I never
> once saw him mount a cow, do the
> sniff and lip curl routine, etc.
> Sure enough I got precious few
> calves out of him, if any, before
> I sent him packing. The calves I
> did get could have been from my
> neighbor's bull, who had never
> before come across the fence but
> felt compelled to do so when I had
> this particular bull. And no, it
> wasn't a problem of fertility or
> disease with all the cows. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~i think ou did the right thing .souds like the guy dont know much about cattle an took him 2 years to figer out what the hell was going on.it would be confusing with the niebors bull coming over breeding them to.Look at it this way:he will pass the word around that you did him right.and youll sell more bulls to people because you stand behind your bulls.word of mouth is the best advertisement you can get in any busness.~~~~~~~~~~Tc
 
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Anonymous

I agree with the other responses on this-obviously the man doesn't know anything about cattle to wait that long but I would offer to replace the bull with another one. The bad rap that could come from this could be alot worse than just giving him another bull. I would then take the bull and put him with some of my own heifers and see what he does. He may be destined for the hamburger market. In the long run at least you won't get negative advertising-the guy will probably praise you to his friends and acquaintences for making it right.
 
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A

Anonymous

Wouldn't worry about the bull or the customer most guarantees will run out after the first breeding season so after that the buyer has to deal with the problems.

[email protected]
 
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A

Anonymous

> I agree with the other responses
> on this-obviously the man doesn't
> know anything about cattle to wait
> that long but I would offer to
> replace the bull with another one.
> The bad rap that could come from
> this could be alot worse than just
> giving him another bull. I would
> then take the bull and put him
> with some of my own heifers and
> see what he does. He may be
> destined for the hamburger market.
> In the long run at least you won't
> get negative advertising-the guy
> will probably praise you to his
> friends and acquaintences for
> making it right.

I would do what Rodger says..Yep

[email protected]
 
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A

Anonymous

When we sell a service age bull we have him jumped and semen collected along with the semen analysis report. That is the extent of our guarantee. If the bull we sold doesn't "like" someone's cows/heifers (or vice versa), then it is a personality problem or physical attraction thing (to put it human terms).

We haven't sold any non-service age bull calves, however. But, if we did, and the bull calf was to be used for a future sire by the buyer, then we would probably have a buy back or exchange option in the sales contract. This is only fair thing to do.

[email protected]
 
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A

Anonymous

a neigbor started running his proven Holstein bull with his open heifers. None of them settled. He got ready to burger the old boy because of none performance, i.e. shooting blanks. After a chat one day he realized what the problem was. He was feeding the bull right along with the heifers. The mill had changed the ration and was substituting a lot of whole cotton seed. Took about 4 months and he's now back to live ammo and doing his job. Another dairy had a high priced bull that didn't setle any cows. One day he discovered he was climbing over the corral and eating grain with the dry cows then climbing back in with the milk string. You guessed it, too much cotton seed. It just goes to show, in defference to the young, "Stuff happens".

dun

> situation: you sell a registered
> bull that you had previously used
> & had calves out of. two years
> later, the buyer calls & says
> he hasn't had any calves out of
> the bull (has calves but says they
> are from neighbors bull).

> for all you seedstock producers:
> "what would you do?"
> & for anyone who purchases
> seedstock "what would you
> want to be done?"

> ok, before you start, yes, one
> option would be to have him
> tested, but he could test ok &
> just not be servicing cows. so,
> either you test & he's ok or
> you test & he's not, what do
> you do?
 
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A

Anonymous

This may be a stupid idea. I haven't given it much thought but, If you feel pretty sure he is puling one on you. What if you agreed to do blood work on one of the calves of your choice and if it shows that it was sired by the bull you sold him. He pays for the blood work and keeps the bull. If not your bull you pay and replace the bull. I haven't had this kind of stuff done and really don't know much about it or what the cost could run. Just a thought!

Rod

> situation: you sell a registered
> bull that you had previously used
> & had calves out of. two years
> later, the buyer calls & says
> he hasn't had any calves out of
> the bull (has calves but says they
> are from neighbors bull).

> for all you seedstock producers:
> "what would you do?"
> & for anyone who purchases
> seedstock "what would you
> want to be done?"

> ok, before you start, yes, one
> option would be to have him
> tested, but he could test ok &
> just not be servicing cows. so,
> either you test & he's ok or
> you test & he's not, what do
> you do?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

IMO, you have to make the customer happy. Give him his money, another bull, whatever he wants. If you think he's pulling a fast one, don't sell him another bull. But even though any reasonable cattleman wouldn't expect compensation after two years, I'd do my best to make it right with him. There's a fellow in my area who is sort of infamous for returning bulls. He's been over to look at ours, but the price has been too high for him. And I plan to keep it that way.

> situation: you sell a registered
> bull that you had previously used
> & had calves out of. two years
> later, the buyer calls & says
> he hasn't had any calves out of
> the bull (has calves but says they
> are from neighbors bull).

> for all you seedstock producers:
> "what would you do?"
> & for anyone who purchases
> seedstock "what would you
> want to be done?"

> ok, before you start, yes, one
> option would be to have him
> tested, but he could test ok &
> just not be servicing cows. so,
> either you test & he's ok or
> you test & he's not, what do
> you do?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

If it was me I would do a DNA test on the a couple of the calves and see what is going on. This way there is no question on who is telling the truth. Total cost might be $200-$300 but is cheaper than giving him a new high priced bull.

Matt S. Bar M Ranch

> situation: you sell a registered
> bull that you had previously used
> & had calves out of. two years
> later, the buyer calls & says
> he hasn't had any calves out of
> the bull (has calves but says they
> are from neighbors bull).

> for all you seedstock producers:
> "what would you do?"
> & for anyone who purchases
> seedstock "what would you
> want to be done?"

> ok, before you start, yes, one
> option would be to have him
> tested, but he could test ok &
> just not be servicing cows. so,
> either you test & he's ok or
> you test & he's not, what do
> you do?



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I don't know what he paid you for the bull, but have you seen what bulls are bringing at the weekly sale barns? I have seen as high as .60 per pound. If your selling bulls and have another, i'd make him take one of those rather than return his money. I also think two years is too long.
 
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A

Anonymous

but I have to stick my oar in. Since we AI and dont use bulls it may be irrelevent. With heifers/cows if they don't settle in the first breeding season the seller will make good on it, usually by replacing with an equavilent valued heifer/cow, unless the managment breeding, etc. has been totally screwed up by the buyer. That said, customer satisfaction is what it's all about. I think 2 years is stretching things a bit, but one person bad mouthing your operation can be a killer. Of course if you get to be known as a pushover that is just as bad. We sell some commercial heifers as breeding stock and stand behind them for their first breeding season, disposition is included in the deal. If we've culled them and sent them to the sale barn they go as butcher heifers. If someone decides to breed them they don't have any recourse. It also doesn't matter if the buyer runs 2 cows or 2000, if he badmouths you it all carrys the same weight with the listener. The first time buyer is the one you need to hook. It's like the car business. The salesman sells the first car, the service sells the the repeat cars.

dun

> situation: you sell a registered
> bull that you had previously used
> & had calves out of. two years
> later, the buyer calls & says
> he hasn't had any calves out of
> the bull (has calves but says they
> are from neighbors bull).

> for all you seedstock producers:
> "what would you do?"
> & for anyone who purchases
> seedstock "what would you
> want to be done?"

> ok, before you start, yes, one
> option would be to have him
> tested, but he could test ok &
> just not be servicing cows. so,
> either you test & he's ok or
> you test & he's not, what do
> you do?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Dun has the right idea, I think. I would offer to replace the bull with another one but I don't believe that I would refund any money. That's of course if you can look at the bull that you've sold him and it's obvious that the bull has been fed and managed well. If the animal has not been cared for and is under weight, parasite ridden, wormy etc. then I would have to try to give the gentleman a quick lesson in cattle management and a phone number for a good vet.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> Dun has the right idea, I think. I
> would offer to replace the bull
> with another one but I don't
> believe that I would refund any
> money. That's of course if you can
> look at the bull that you've sold
> him and it's obvious that the bull
> has been fed and managed well. If
> the animal has not been cared for
> and is under weight, parasite
> ridden, wormy etc. then I would
> have to try to give the gentleman
> a quick lesson in cattle
> management and a phone number for
> a good vet.

Lots of good ideas for you to look at. I agree with this one the most. Look at the bull and exchange animals only. I wouldn't give any money.



[email protected]
 
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A

Anonymous

thanks to everyone for the posts & comments. we had already made the decision to make good on the bull & provide a new one (we're having them sell the bull through the auction in our name & then giving them a new one), so i was just interested in what other responses might be. seems like we were with the majority in keeping up a good reputation. i agree that one upset or unhappy customer, whether he is just pulling a fast one or not, could really hurt a reputation. in this case, i don't think he was pulling a fast one. maybe i'm wrong....we'll probably know in two years. again, thanks for all the good comments.
 
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A

Anonymous

I wish I had read this sooner. I am one that is on the other end of a similar situation. I bought a reg. Angus bull calf with his mother. He has a good pedigree and has turned out to be a reall good looking bull, only problem is he missed 6 of my cows and only bred one cow and 4 heifers. Had him tested and he just did not produce the volume req. Now the twist, I did not want my money back, I got what I bought, a calf. All I wanted was advice/insight as to what I should do. It was suggested by the breeder that I put him on a high protien diet with high quality alfalfa/grass hay for 2 months and have him tested again.

I don't know if I'll end up keeping him or not.
 
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A

Anonymous

When you buy a bull or heifer calf at side, you're right not to expect any kind of breeding guarantee. There are just too many things that can happen to a calf before they're old enough to breed. How old is the bull? What does he weigh? We test most of our bulls at 12-14 months old and had our first failure this year. He was a big, framy guy and just hadn't matured as early as the other bulls. By the time he was 18 months, he did fine. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you...

> I wish I had read this sooner. I
> am one that is on the other end of
> a similar situation. I bought a
> reg. Angus bull calf with his
> mother. He has a good pedigree and
> has turned out to be a reall good
> looking bull, only problem is he
> missed 6 of my cows and only bred
> one cow and 4 heifers. Had him
> tested and he just did not produce
> the volume req. Now the twist, I
> did not want my money back, I got
> what I bought, a calf. All I
> wanted was advice/insight as to
> what I should do. It was suggested
> by the breeder that I put him on a
> high protien diet with high
> quality alfalfa/grass hay for 2
> months and have him tested again.

> I don't know if I'll end up
> keeping him or not.



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