Bull Sale buyers are confusing...

[DavisBeefmasters]

Perhaps the wrong section to post in, but perhaps it is...

We have been reading a lot of threads lately regarding EPD's, birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weight etc. A lot of people have offered their opinions with respect to the "ideal situation" regarding these statistics.

We got to witness the practical application of what a bull buyer is looking for which greatly contradicts some of the statements being made. The sale was an all breed bull sale in Central California: Angus (red and black), Charolais, Hereford, Beefmaster, Brangus, Simmental, etc. We reviewed the EPD's and actual performance data of many of the lots prior to sale.

The highest selling lots were as follows (in our opinion and notes):
1. Black Angus
2. Average birth weight 85 to 95 lbs
3. Weaning weights in the mid 800's
4. Yearling weights in the 1000's
5. 2 year old weights in the 2000's
6. Visual look -- fat, grained heavy to a BIG condition
7. Disposition -- ranged from calm to wild and ready to leap out of the ring

Good gravy -- if the cows wean off a calf 60% of their body size then the dams of these bulls must weigh 1400 lbs so much for moderate frame? Can you say creep fed?

Why don't we all "practice what we preach?" -- The poor consignors that brought their bulls in that were solid and built on forage only took a beating... or didn't sell at all.

It was an eye opener.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Most people will always pick the big and fat animal,it really doesn't matter what they say they want.I don't know how many times people looked thru my cows saying they wanted good 1200lbs cows and then the first cow they ask about is some fat 1600lbs rip.

 

[bigbull338]

that tells you that people want a big fat bull.1 that has kept his head in the feed trough.an then they turn that bull out on grass with the cows.an that bull falls apart without feed.i have 2 bulls that have been strictly raised on grass an hay.not 1 bite of feed as of yet.an they wont blowup in pasture condtion.

 

[Frankie]

Perhaps the wrong section to post in, but perhaps it is...

We have been reading a lot of threads lately regarding EPD's, birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weight etc. A lot of people have offered their opinions with respect to the "ideal situation" regarding these statistics.

We got to witness the practical application of what a bull buyer is looking for which greatly contradicts some of the statements being made. The sale was an all breed bull sale in Central California: Angus (red and black), Charolais, Hereford, Beefmaster, Brangus, Simmental, etc. We reviewed the EPD's and actual performance data of many of the lots prior to sale.

The highest selling lots were as follows (in our opinion and notes):
1. Black Angus
2. Average birth weight 85 to 95 lbs
3. Weaning weights in the mid 800's
4. Yearling weights in the 1000's
5. 2 year old weights in the 2000's
6. Visual look -- fat, grained heavy to a BIG condition
7. Disposition -- ranged from calm to wild and ready to leap out of the ring

Good gravy -- if the cows wean off a calf 60% of their body size then the dams of these bulls must weigh 1400 lbs so much for moderate frame? Can you say creep fed?

Why don't we all "practice what we preach?" -- The poor consignors that brought their bulls in that were solid and built on forage only took a beating... or didn't sell at all.

It was an eye opener.

I don't think you should have been surprised that the well conditioned bulls sold best. In spite of the talk and hype about grass fed bulls, most cattlemen are still sending their calves to the feedlot. Plus most of us like to look at well conditioned animals. A bull may fall apart on grass, but at least you know he has the potential to produce calves that will perform in the feedlot.

Good move on your part to get out and see what's happening where the bull buyers are making decisions ans spending their money.

 

[Bez+]

Perhaps the wrong section to post in, but perhaps it is...

We have been reading a lot of threads lately regarding EPD's, birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weight etc. A lot of people have offered their opinions with respect to the "ideal situation" regarding these statistics.

We got to witness the practical application of what a bull buyer is looking for which greatly contradicts some of the statements being made. The sale was an all breed bull sale in Central California: Angus (red and black), Charolais, Hereford, Beefmaster, Brangus, Simmental, etc. We reviewed the EPD's and actual performance data of many of the lots prior to sale.

The highest selling lots were as follows (in our opinion and notes):
1. Black Angus
2. Average birth weight 85 to 95 lbs
3. Weaning weights in the mid 800's
4. Yearling weights in the 1000's
5. 2 year old weights in the 2000's
6. Visual look -- fat, grained heavy to a BIG condition
7. Disposition -- ranged from calm to wild and ready to leap out of the ring

Good gravy -- if the cows wean off a calf 60% of their body size then the dams of these bulls must weigh 1400 lbs so much for moderate frame? Can you say creep fed?

Why don't we all "practice what we preach?" -- The poor consignors that brought their bulls in that were solid and built on forage only took a beating... or didn't sell at all.

It was an eye opener.

Nice to see at least one person gets it

Bez+

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

that tells you that people want a big fat bull.1 that has kept his head in the feed trough.an then they turn that bull out on grass with the cows.an that bull falls apart without feed.i have 2 bulls that have been strictly raised on grass an hay.not 1 bite of feed as of yet.an they wont blowup in pasture condtion.

Yes, we fed ours on hay and then put them on a little bit of grain (not exceeding 8# per day) for the last 60 days prior to sale -- apparently we should have started them on grain at birth [NOT going to happen ] -- running the math on feeding them grain from birth (even weaning) you wouldn't recoup your costs in the animal -- of 148 bulls only 2 or 3 sold over $3,000.00 With the feed, A.I. semen (since most of them were A.I. instead of natural service), vet tests prior to sale, etc. -- I don't see how they made any money raising and keeping that animal for 2 years.

We'll be back next year and have some published performance data (EPDs) and perhaps a chart on how to convert the BBU EPDs over to the Angus base so they can see what our bulls can do -- does anyone have a link to any published information on any performance data on a Beefmaster bull crossed with an Angus female? [We don't since we're 100% purebred beefmaster].

Any all advice and comments welcome.

 

[Frankie]

I agree. I don't see how people can make money selling 2-year old bulls. And there aren't a lot of bulls that will be ready to go to work as yearlings without feed. I don't think creep feeding is necessary to get a bull grown out as a yearling. We don't.

Buyers like information, EPDs, actual performance, ultrasound data. Below is the link to the MARC across breed EPD chart. You can use it to compare your bull's EPDs to average Angus EPDS? That might be helpful. Does the Beefmaster Assn have any information/data about using Beefmaster bulls in a crossbreeding program?

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 09News.pdf

BTW, average Angus EPDs are not 0.

 

[Avalon]

Frankie might be able to attest to this at least as far as Texas. Everytime I consign a bull to a sale. The sale manager even knowing that we feed show cattle will remind me: Remember that fat sells. It's a mental thing. When buyers get to a sale, they are like kids at a candy factory and cant wait to get that fat rascal home so that they can have some more fat little rascals out of him.They often overlook that fact that the bulls most possibly were over fed. They look at fat and translate it to good condition. Then assume that all all that weight was easily gained. Yes they know better but its the emotion of a party that kind of throws a lot of reason out the window.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie might be able to attest to this at least as far as Texas. Everytime I consign a bull to a sale. The sale manager even knowing that we feed show cattle will remind me: Remember that fat sells. It's a mental thing. When buyers get to a sale, they are like kids at a candy factory and cant wait to get that fat rascal home so that they can have some more fat little rascals out of him.They often overlook that fact that the bulls most possibly were over fed. They look at fat and translate it to good condition. Then assume that all all that weight was easily gained. Yes they know better but its the emotion of a party that kind of throws a lot of reason out the window.

I can attest to that. In the north Texas - Southern OK region where we attend bull sales, the producer who runs a bull through the ring with ribs or hip bones showing is likely to take a hit. And, if it's a young bull, buyers are smart to pass on him. A young bull can lose 100+ pounds in his first breeding season. If he doesn't have some condition (energy stored as fat), he may lose muscle mass. Yes, they can be too fat, too.

 

[bigbull338]

well if a bull cant hold his weight with slight varances on 80 cows year round something is wrong.my bull runs with 50 to 60 cows year round.an he doesnt loose any major weight.nor do i have to pull him out an feed him up.he is trained to come up for feed when he wants feed.an when he comes up he gets 8 to 12lbs of feed.

 

[bigbull338]

well i run the beef cow herd like i did when we dairied.an when we milked cows we had 1 bull with 100 to 120 cows year round.

 

[vclavin]

WE educate them bull buyers - :cboy:
I never have any luck selling at a sale barn, for one thing, those auctioneers and sale barn owners don't have a clue about epd's. I tried to tell one of them that just because a bull was born 60lbs doesn't mean he will throw 60lb calves. Cows do that not bulls. Bull EPDs for BW are only for the average BW's of a given group of contemporaries. There is so much more to it than what these folks are telling the bull buyers.
I prefer to sell off the farm , make a friend and a sale. Most buyers a willing to learn how to read EPD's , most so far haven't a clue as to the meaning. They are however, surprised at the volume of data we collect on each animal.
We creep feed , but with high fiber not high enery. That way, bulls do not lose that conditioning in the pasture.
We use a program from the Angus Assoc. called "AIMS" . Awesome program and capable of simulated breeding to help with EPD goals. I use it with my crossbreed as well. I had to assign EPD's to the X's to get started.
Anyway, On farm sales or at least a Registered Breed Sale would let buyers know the quality you have.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin