Bull prospect

[KNERSIE]

There have been many bull prospects posted here lately and often the posters got very agitated when they hear the calf isn't deep enough or masculine enough or sirey enough or not enough bone or muscle, etc. The defense is always the calf is still young and will still develope and that he would look completely different after he's been on feed for 3 months, etc.

This calf was born 19 June, has never seen pasture in his life, doesn't even know what a creep feeder or grain looks like, has been on very acidic range from day 1 as you can see in the photos. To me this is what a real bull prospect looks like at 6 weeks, no need to make excuses for him. I also don't need profit indeces to tell me he is going to make me money ;-)

BTW he is 100% my own breeding, sired by a yearling bull I used last year before selling him. Unfortunately I don't have a decent photo of his sire.

 

[cmf1]

If you lived closer to me I'd probably be in the Hereford business.
Seriously, I think this young fella' supports the concept that most breeds offer phenotypes that will fit the type of operation and management practices that anybody employs.
Finding a breeder that breeds for your like practices is the journey.
Around me, as Cypress has found in his searching, They just aren't trying to achieve the kind of package that you are breeding for.
I don't know enough to say that one is better than the other for anyone's particular operation.
But I do know what I am looking for for mine.
And this little bull at six weeks appears to be it.
I'll be looking forward to see how he progresses if your willing to share.
What was his birth weight?

 

[alisonb]

Knersie,
He seems sound enough,there just isn't enough bull. I want to see his guts,butts and nuts. Oh, and he isn't a decent length and looks too feminine for my liking!

Only joking :lol2: would love to see how he progresses,you can be proud. :clap:

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Shipping crate to Australia please thankyou Knersie.

 

[greatgerts]

One word...


THICK!!!!

 

[Herefords.US]

Pretty bull calf! I especially like the depth of body he already shows!

I still don't know how you can tell how they are going to develop at this age though! At this age, it's basically been all "momma's milk". To me the critical time is from here on, when momma's milk is no longer enough and they have to start grazing and help support their own growth.

George

 

[alacattleman]

he's a thick little rascal..

 

[smnherf]

George is right. At this point his momma has a huge impact on what he looks like. Many times they can look really thick on mommas milk but as they grow ino themselves they can change quite a bit. This bull certainly appears to have the base width and rib to continue to grow into a massive, easy fleshing, moderate framed bull.


Brian

 

[Rustler9]

Good looking calf from what I can see. He's young but when I see them that look like that at that age it certainly gets my attention. I always have a couple Longhorn calves like that, they just stand out, you can tell that they have the makings of a bull. It will be interesting to see him in a few months.

 

[alacattleman]

George is right. At this point his momma has a huge impact on what he looks like. Many times they can look really thick on mommas milk but as they grow ino themselves they can change quite a bit. This bull certainly appears to have the base width and rib to continue to grow into a massive, easy fleshing, moderate framed bull.


Brian

well id hope she would, she's doing her job, and he's living up too he's genetic merit..

 

[KNERSIE]

George is right. At this point his momma has a huge impact on what he looks like. Many times they can look really thick on mommas milk but as they grow ino themselves they can change quite a bit.

Brian

Gosh I think even herefordsire knows that! Would you rather want a bull looking like this at 6 weeks or do you want one that looked like nothing at 6 weeks, but turned into a mammoth when on a feedlot ration? Even before I look deeper at a bullcalf I want to see what his dam can do under my conditions, a profitable beef cow need to raise a very good calf under your conditions with the least possible inputs.

I feel a big part of the reason herefords lost so much marketshare the last 30 years is because maternal traits and do-ability were neglected in favour of chasing continental like feedlot growth.

This bull certainly appears to have the base width and rib to continue to grow into a massive, easy fleshing, moderate framed bull.

He is as wide, deep and as heavy muscled as any calf I've seen and growthier than the average for most hereford herds, I am just not as convinced that he will be moderate enough for my liking, his dam is a big cow in my herd.

I'll keep you posted on this calf's developement, I know his dam, I've seen what his sire can do in my commercial herd, I know what his grandsire did for me in the registered herd, I know what his granddam is still doing for me in the registered herd, all things considered he is a pretty safe bet.

What was his birth weight?

40kg

 

[cmf1]

Uh, Am I wrong to assume that a bull calf that looks like that on momma's milk is more than likely going to be a bull that passes that heritable trait on to his progeny?
Isn't this an epd in real life there before you to actually see rather than ink on paper that was mathematically tempered and tweaked?
I'm really asking?

 

[KNERSIE]

Uh, Am I wrong to assume that a bull calf that looks like that on momma's milk is more than likely going to be a bull that passes that heritable trait on to his progeny?
Isn't this an epd in real life there before you to actually see rather than ink on paper that was mathematically tempered and tweaked?
I'm really asking?

You are correct.

Seems that common sense really isn't a requirement for cattle breeding anymore since the invention of EPDs.

 

[HerefordSire]

Seems that common sense really isn't a requirement for cattle breeding anymore since the invention of EPDs.

You could be more dangerous if your unproven calf was top the EBV charts for black white face production in South Africa. How does he rank in EBVs in your country for all categories?

 

[dun]

The term is "prospect". He may or not prove out, but there is a better chance that he will then some hound gutted, cat hammed thing that looks like a steer.

 

[alacattleman]

knersie. here is some of our common sense at work :cowboy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWVyJ-YG ... re=related

 

[SRBeef]

Absolutely beautiful calf. Your photo and discussion helps a beginner like me to put some of these EPD vs looking at them discussions into perspective.

One thing I wonder about - you mention seeing and knowing the sire, grand sire, grand dam etc in your herd and their characteristics as taking the place of EPD's. That is the way I hope to do it also - breeding within my own herd where I can see the animals and get to know the good and bad of each one I am breeding. I will process most of them but keep the ones which move my herd in the direction I want to go: smaller/1200 lb cows, calving ease, good on pasture only, good disposition, good carcass characteristics, good marb yet moderate backfat, do well outwintering in WI.....on and on.

However with so much AI going on, it seems like many breeders will never have actually SEEN or gotton to know the good and bad of the sire, sire's dam, grand sire, maybe dam's sire, etc. With AI it seems that breeders are more and more isolated from the "seeing" and forced to rely more on the EPD numbers of the pedigree.

Knersie, do you use AI from animals outside your herd?

That picture of a 6 week calf sets a standard I'll be using when I look at mine. Thank you for the post. Jim

 

[SRBeef]

The term is "prospect". He may or not prove out, but there is a better chance that he will then some hound gutted, cat hammed thing that looks like a steer.

Dun, I'm learning as I go here. Your post does remind me that this spring my vet and I ran the herd thru the chute when most of my calves were 5-6 weeks old. I got in the chute with some of the calves to hold them since the headgate doesn't work real well on calves. That was interesting in that I got "up close and personal" with each of the calves and especially to feel the range of strength and muscle development.

One calf was head and shoulders above the other in muscle development and strength. However now, running them thru the scale and alley last week at 14 weeks old several of the other calves have caught up to or surpassed the one that was so impressive at 6 weeks. They are out of vastly different size cows however

I guess this is part of what makes the cattle business so interesting - they keep reminding me I maybe don't know as much as I thought I knew.... Thanks for the reminder.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

One thing I wonder about - you mention seeing and knowing the sire, grand sire, grand dam etc in your herd and their characteristics as taking the place of EPD's.

Its not a case of visual appraisal or local knowledge taking the place of EPDs, its a case of using all the tools in the box for the purpose it was designed for in the first place.

That is the way I hope to do it also - breeding within my own herd where I can see the animals and get to know the good and bad of each one I am breeding.

I'll guarantee that heifers produced by your best cows without excessive help from you will outperform 90% of all bought in heifers.

However with so much AI going on, it seems like many breeders will never have actually SEEN or gotton to know the good and bad of the sire, sire's dam, grand sire, maybe dam's sire, etc. With AI it seems that breeders are more and more isolated from the "seeing" and forced to rely more on the EPD numbers of the pedigree.

That is only a problem if you chase the bull of the month, if your breeding goals aare sound and you stick with your plan and use common sense when using a new AI sire, you'll soon enough see what an AI sire can do for you.

Knersie, do you use AI from animals outside your herd?

Yes, I do alot of AI-ing, I am just conservative in my bull selection. Once I've found something that works and is breeding the type I want I stick with it. I do however AI some cows "terminally" to a popular bull for saleability.

That picture of a 6 week calf sets a standard I'll be using when I look at mine. Thank you for the post. Jim

Maybe I should tell you more about how and why I do things.

I farm in an endemic redwater and gallsickness area, so buying expensive bulls from clean areas really isn't an option, so I rather go on a raodtrip every few years and go and find a bull I like out of a line I like bred under conditions as tough as mine. Then I negotiate with the breeder to have him tapped if he isn't already an approved AI sire. I then AI my best cows to this bull to breed a few bulls firstly for my own use and to sell to my regular clients. The bulls I've used will then be sold in a production sale or off the farm to new clients who want an older bull or who hasn't yet proved to me they can look after a young bull.

I have long ago given up on matching each cow with a specific bull to try and correct faults or try and breed milk or whatever into a cow. I rather use two AI sires of very similar type, but which may lean SLIGHTLY to different directions to enhance certain areas rather than to correct faults. I've seen over the last few bulls of my own bred this way that the bull born here often outperforms his sire.

This coming breeding season I'll use two halfsibs out of my main AI sire as cleanup bulls and use my main AI sire, a bull out of the same herd, a related bull to my main AI sire as a "terminal" bull on some registered second calvers and test a few straws of a Canadian bull I've imported.

My cleanup bull of last year will open all the commercial heifers and another halfsib of my two cleanup bulls will get the bulk of the commercial herd.

 

[ollie?]

Seems that common sense really isn't a requirement for cattle breeding anymore since the invention of EPDs.

Ditto.