Bull prospect

[Travlr]

If your calves are improving, then its working.

Yeah... that's what they all say just before they hit the brick wall.

Too cocky to wear a seat belt too...

 

[cowgirl8]

Yeah... that's what they all say just before they hit the brick wall.

Too cocky to wear a seat belt too...

45 years.... no brick wall yet. Guess, we're doing something right.

 

[cowgirl8]

This cow ,2014 model. She's the closest to the black simbra, probably a grand daughter. I call her Brown Swissy, although, there is none in her. Her steer just sold for 1600 at the local sale. He was grey but built like we've worked for. Color doesnt matter if they are built right.

 

[cowgirl8]

Brindle bull calf who will be a steer tomorrow.

 

[Travlr]

45 years.... no brick wall yet. Guess, we're doing something right.

And of course you have no clue what kind of damage you might be doing in the meantime...

Your calves are nice looking. They look healthy. But a lot of genetically damaged animals look healthy. And if you aren't intentionally inbreeding, trying to sculpt some kind of performance out of your stock, then it's likely you'll be fine. But inbreeding is dangerous by accident occasionally too. There are too many examples of bad outcomes that have done major damage for a smart producer to ignore.

 

[cowgirl8]

And of course you have no clue what kind of damage you might be doing in the meantime...

Your calves are nice looking. They look healthy. But a lot of genetically damaged animals look healthy. And if you aren't intentionally inbreeding, trying to sculpt some kind of performance out of your stock, then it's likely you'll be fine. But inbreeding is dangerous by accident occasionally too. There are too many examples of bad outcomes that have done major damage for a smart producer to ignore.

When we bought reg angus, we got occasional birth defects. That was years ago. We quit getting reg angus. I cant recall a single birth defect since. Not sure what i should be looking for that you seem concerned about.

 

[Ky hills]

We're using a bull with some of his daughters this year. Don't really like doing much of that, but didn't want to buy another heifer bull. We have an outcross growth bull to use later this fall, and for those heifers next year for their second calves.
We have been using home raised bulls with sibling matings sometimes and it's been fine. It was a little concerning as we have a few potential DDC animals, but I think by now we've proven our older bull free of that.

 

[cowgirl8]

We have several herds and keep 15+ bulls. If we keep heifers, it will be 14 mo before they see a bull. Those bulls will be bulls we only use for heifers. They will be bred to these bulls for 2 years. So, thats years before they go to a new herd. By then, we more than likely have different bulls. If i can tell what bull the heifers are out of by then, once they go to a grown herd, they go to one that we dont use that bloodline on. Do we sometimes get it wrong, sure. But over the years, our weaning weights have gone up. And, isnt that mostly what matters? Our udders are also so much better than 20 yrs ago. Bigger weaning weights, good udders..... no brick walls so far. I do not miss paying 5 grand for a reg bull for him to only break his penis a month into breeding season.

 

[wbvs58]

The cow he is out of missing her 2nd calf would be a black dot against her and him here, actually 3 black crosses. She would have to have a pretty good excuse for it to stay.

Ken

 

[anewcomer]

Mark, you're gonna get yourself in trouble with those comments on cow size.

 

[elkwc]

I've wondered about the size of some of the cows mentioned here. Someone tell me the thought process of why you want a big cow. The thought process I use is that you actually want a smaller cow because she will consume fewer resources (cost less) in terms of hay and pasture, or be able to have more cows for the resources available, and the calf the cow is producing has an 'ideal' market size that is independent of the cow size.

In other words:

500# calf on a big cow costs $$$ in resources
500# calf on a small cow costs $ in resources (or the same $ in resources but more cows which means more calves)

First current efficiency testing has shown size and weight are poor indicators of efficiency. It has shown you can reduce maintenance costs by 25% and maintain frame size and weight. Efficiency will be more important in the future. Our forages here require a high volume cow. Our market wants a 6,0 frame animal. So instead of a 1,350-1,400 lb 5 frame cow we want a 1,400-1,450 lb 6 frame cow. A low volume cow here don't last. We have tried the smaller cows. We found the require more supplement to maintain condition. Also we have found with smaller cows we see less than an 10% increase in stocking rates here. Each breeder has to find what works for them and returns the most dollars per acre. Unless the smaller cows have been efficiency tested there is no way to tell they are efficient or consume less.

 

[Travlr]

When we bought reg angus, we got occasional birth defects. That was years ago. We quit getting reg angus. I cant recall a single birth defect since. Not sure what i should be looking for that you seem concerned about.

You seem to be thinking I'm attacking you... when all I'm saying is that inbreeding has a history of people having problems if they don't know what they are doing. Some get lucky, some don't. Some sell the problems they create and spread it without ever knowing.

And yeah, Angus had some real problems due to inbreeding. They've gone to a lot of trouble and expense to rectify the issues being spread. And the problems they had were in bulls bred by people that were well versed in genetic potentials.

Considering how easy it is to not inbreed... I prefer to improve my animals by out breeding. I wish you well. Do as you wish. Good luck.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Mark, you're gonna get yourself in trouble with those comments on cow size.

Not my intent, but it wouldn't be the first time I've stepped in a cow pie. I know some producers want a small cow, some want a big cow, some want a cow with a certain frame size, some aren't particular. Economics don't necessarily drive everything, but they are usually a major factor. To compound the issue, there are multiple factors that go into economics. I'm just curious about decisions made and what drives the decisions.

 

[cowgirl8]

You seem to be thinking I'm attacking you... when all I'm saying is that inbreeding has a history of people having problems if they don't know what they are doing. Some get lucky, some don't. Some sell the problems they create and spread it without ever knowing.

And yeah, Angus had some real problems due to inbreeding. They've gone to a lot of trouble and expense to rectify the issues being spread. And the problems they had were in bulls bred by people that were well versed in genetic potentials.

Considering how easy it is to not inbreed... I prefer to improve my animals by out breeding. I wish you well. Do as you wish. Good luck.

Nah, i'm just wondering what brick wall you're referring to.

 

[Allenw]

You seem to be thinking I'm attacking you... when all I'm saying is that inbreeding has a history of people having problems if they don't know what they are doing. Some get lucky, some don't. Some sell the problems they create and spread it without ever knowing.

And yeah, Angus had some real problems due to inbreeding. They've gone to a lot of trouble and expense to rectify the issues being spread. And the problems they had were in bulls bred by people that were well versed in genetic potentials.

Considering how easy it is to not inbreed... I prefer to improve my animals by out breeding. I wish you well. Do as you wish. Good luck.

Inbreeding doesn't create problems it can expose them.

You can't validly argue something you don't understand.

 

[elkwc]

You seem to be thinking I'm attacking you... when all I'm saying is that inbreeding has a history of people having problems if they don't know what they are doing. Some get lucky, some don't. Some sell the problems they create and spread it without ever knowing.

And yeah, Angus had some real problems due to inbreeding. They've gone to a lot of trouble and expense to rectify the issues being spread. And the problems they had were in bulls bred by people that were well versed in genetic potentials.

Considering how easy it is to not inbreed... I prefer to improve my animals by out breeding. I wish you well. Do as you wish. Good luck.

I have seen line breeding my whole life in cattle and horses. I believe in it. The most uniforms will be those with some line breeding. As an old breeder said there needs to be a common thread throughout the herd. We have found the bulls we retain perform as well if not better than those from the out side genetics. They are out of cows that perform in our environment. We have had way more issues when we bring in out side out cross genetics. We have brought in issues that set our herd back. That is one reason we did some AIing. In an effort to find outside genetics that will work in our herd. So far we have found about 2/3 bring in issues we don't prefer. If that works for you then do it. For many of us that don't work as well.

 

[Travlr]

Not my intent, but it wouldn't be the first time I've stepped in a cow pie. I know some producers want a small cow, some want a big cow, some want a cow with a certain frame size, some aren't particular. Economics don't necessarily drive everything, but they are usually a major factor. To compound the issue, there are multiple factors that go into economics. I'm just curious about decisions made and what drives the decisions.

In Arkansas most people were running 1000 to 1200 pound cows. In South Dakota we ran 13 to 1500 pound cows because of the winter temps. I tried to run heavier cows in Arkansas, 11/1300 because I was looking for heavier weaning weights.
I'm sure there was some truth in the heavier cows requiring more calories, but I really believe it is less difference than is generally believed. The different between a cow that weighs 200 pounds (20%?) more is not going to be 20% more in feed.
The cows in Arkansas were easier to handle because they were smaller. Hard to put a percentage of difference on that, and maybe it had something to do with me being older and less capable.
I had one cow in Arkansas that weighed 2K and weaned an 825 pound calf. Hard to argue with that kind of increased production when the cow might be eating 10% more than a cow that weans a 600 pound calf.
For weaning weights I'll take big cows and for easy handling I'd take smaller animals. Trade-offs...

 

[Travlr]

Nah, i'm just wondering what brick wall you're referring to.

• These are brick walls
• 
  
• achondroplasia (bulldog dwarfism)
• alopecia
• ankylosis
• arthrogryposis (palate-pastern syndrome, rigid joints)
• arthrogryposis multiplex (AM, curly calf syndrome)
• brachynathia inferior (parrot mouth)
• cryptorchidism
• dermoid (feather eyes)
• double muscling
• fawn calf syndrome
• hypotrichosis (hairlessness)
• hypotrichosis ("rat-tail")
• idiopathic epilepsy (IE)
• mannosidosis
• neuraxial edema (maple syrup urine disease)
• neuropathic hydrocephalus (NH, "water-head")
• oculocutaneous hypopigmentation (white eyes)
• osteopetrosis (marble bone disease)
• polydactyly (extra toes)
• progressive bovine myeloencephaly (weaver calf)
• prolonged gestation
• protoporphyria (photosensitivity)
• pulmonary hypoplasia with anasarca (PHA)
• syndactyly (mule foot)
• tibial hemimelia (TH)
• translocations

And these are only the ones listed. New abnormalities crop up and disappear because they are caught early and any surviving calves are terminal, and the herd they come from are terminated too.

I know a (human) couple that married and had three kids even though they are first cousins. They appear healthy. Their kids are all deaf.

And as for me "understanding", (@Allenw @elkwc), I'll stick to the fact that most people practicing inbreeding/line breeding don't know as much as they think they do. You can gang up on me all you want and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. The list speaks for itself.

 

[Allenw]

• These are brick walls
• 
  
• achondroplasia (bulldog dwarfism)
• alopecia
• ankylosis
• arthrogryposis (palate-pastern syndrome, rigid joints)
• arthrogryposis multiplex (AM, curly calf syndrome)
• brachynathia inferior (parrot mouth)
• cryptorchidism
• dermoid (feather eyes)
• double muscling
• fawn calf syndrome
• hypotrichosis (hairlessness)
• hypotrichosis ("rat-tail")
• idiopathic epilepsy (IE)
• mannosidosis
• neuraxial edema (maple syrup urine disease)
• neuropathic hydrocephalus (NH, "water-head")
• oculocutaneous hypopigmentation (white eyes)
• osteopetrosis (marble bone disease)
• polydactyly (extra toes)
• progressive bovine myeloencephaly (weaver calf)
• prolonged gestation
• protoporphyria (photosensitivity)
• pulmonary hypoplasia with anasarca (PHA)
• syndactyly (mule foot)
• tibial hemimelia (TH)
• translocations

And these are only the ones listed. New abnormalities crop up and disappear because they are caught early and any surviving calves are terminal, and the herd they come from are terminated too.

I know a (human) couple that married and had three kids even though they are first cousins. They appear healthy. Their kids are all deaf.

And as for me "understanding", (@Allenw @elkwc), I'll stick to the fact that most people practicing inbreeding/line breeding don't know as much as they think they do. You can gang up on me all you want and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. The list speaks for itself.

Everything you listed is a genetic defect, the only thing line breeding does is bring it to the surface. They are all problems that need to be faced and delt with sooner rather then later.

 

[Travlr]

Everything you listed is a genetic defect, the only thing line breeding does is bring it to the surface. They are all problems that need to be faced and delt with sooner rather then later.

And how do you "deal" with genetic defects before they show up? How do you avoid them?