Bull Problem - Inform Breeder?

[Conagher]

Bought a registered herd bull last year for clean-up from A.I. 20 month old, virgin bull from reputable breeder. Noticed last year it took him up to three heat cycles to settle the 4 missed cows (one on first heat, 2 on second heat, and one on 3rd heat). Wrote it off to him being a young, virgin bull. This year he has had 4 heat cycles on two cows, and 3 on three others. Still not sure if any of them are settled. Had a BSE performed by local vet and bull passed with flying colors. Though I saw him trying to mount all of these cows, I never once saw him make actual penetration. So out of frustration and trying to keep my calving season to a reasonable length I packed him up and shipped him to the sale barn – but not as a registered animal because of the issues identified. Question on whether or not I should mentioned this to the breeder I bought him from? I do not intend to ask the breeder for any compensation because I believe he sold him in good faith, he passed two BSE's within a year, and I did end up with calves from him this year, though delayed. I think as a breeder I would like to know this, especially since this bull was not from A.I. but from his heavily promoted herd sire. I have no issues with not saying anything, just wondering what others think, and if you are a breeder would you want to know?

Thanks!

 

[redfornow]

Bought a registered herd bull last year for clean-up from A.I. 20 month old, virgin bull from reputable breeder. Noticed last year it took him up to three heat cycles to settle the 4 missed cows (one on first heat, 2 on second heat, and one on 3rd heat). Wrote it off to him being a young, virgin bull. This year he has had 4 heat cycles on two cows, and 3 on three others. Still not sure if any of them are settled. Had a BSE performed by local vet and bull passed with flying colors. Though I saw him trying to mount all of these cows, I never once saw him make actual penetration. So out of frustration and trying to keep my calving season to a reasonable length I packed him up and shipped him to the sale barn – but not as a registered animal because of the issues identified. Question on whether or not I should mentioned this to the breeder I bought him from? I do not intend to ask the breeder for any compensation because I believe he sold him in good faith, he passed two BSE's within a year, and I did end up with calves from him this year, though delayed. I think as a breeder I would like to know this, especially since this bull was not from A.I. but from his heavily promoted herd sire. I have no issues with not saying anything, just wondering what others think, and if you are a breeder would you want to know?

Thanks!

Its all about the spirit of your words. Yes, I would like know. It could be an isolated issue. But than again it could be a bigger deal. All you can do is be honest and let him know that you believe that he is honest.

I think you can and will do both.

Red

 

[endebt]

I think you ought to have your cows checked. The bull is doing his job . It may be the cows have some kind of a problem. I sell bulls and have had this happen to me. Took the cows in to have them checked and found that it was them. Either deasiese(sp) or there is something wrong with their tracks. Hope this helps.

 

[Conagher]

I think you ought to have your cows checked. The bull is doing his job . It may be the cows have some kind of a problem. I sell bulls and have had this happen to me. Took the cows in to have them checked and found that it was them. Either deasiese(sp) or there is something wrong with their tracks. Hope this helps.

Good point endebt. I had actually thought about this angle but ruled it out because of it being several cows and I know my A.I. tech is not 100% so fully expected some to come up open after the A.I. attempt. However, the bull has not been able to settle any of them. These were all cows, not heifers; some with up to 5 calves behind them. So I guess it is certainly possible something could have slipped in and affected only these cows and not the rest of the herd. I have a pretty extensive annual vac program, but will follow your advice and take a couple in for testing.

Thanks.

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

Definitely need to narrow down the possibilities first:

1. Get the cows checked, might be a reason they didn't settle with A.I. or natural service

2. When you have a bull checked with a full BSE including the stimulation... I've heard that their fertility can suffer for the next 30 to 60 days after the BSE... not something to do immediately before turning out a bull with the herd to perform.

 

[angus9259]

check the cows . . . absolutely . . .

BUT . . . if it's the bull, I'd want to know as a breeder.

Personally, if you approached me in a positive spirit as you did in this post, I'd give you a replacement less the cull price of the other bull even if it couldn't be proven who was at fault. A satisified customer is a returning customer.

 

[redfornow]

check the cows . . . absolutely . . .

BUT . . . if it's the bull, I'd want to know as a breeder.

Personally, if you approached me in a positive spirit as you did in this post, I'd give you a replacement less the cull price of the other bull even if it couldn't be proven who was at fault. A satisified customer is a returning customer.

Vaccinate for vibriosis, trichguard, neospora, and leptosis and you should hopefully not have re breeders provided the animal is on a good plane of nutrition.

Thats the basics. But there are "other" items at work with getting a cow in calf.

 

[milkmaid]

Are the cows that aren't settling this year... the same cows that had a hard time settling last year?

What vaccines have the cows been given?

I think I'd have the cows checked out and re-evaluate your vaccination program, worming program, and nutritional/mineral program. The bull is only half the equation, and maybe not even that, since the cow has to maintain the pregnancy after conception.

 

[Conagher]

Are the cows that aren't settling this year... the same cows that had a hard time settling last year?

No, all are different. This years cows that aren't settling are the ones that took 1st A.I. attempt last year.

What vaccines have the cows been given?

They all get an annual vac. This year was: Cattle Master 4 +VL5, Cattle-Vac 7 and Cydectin pour-on. I usally alternate wormers every 6 months between pour-on and Ivomec injectable.

I think I'd have the cows checked out and re-evaluate your vaccination program, worming program, and nutritional/mineral program. The bull is only half the equation, and maybe not even that, since the cow has to maintain the pregnancy after conception.

I will have some of the cows checked in the next couple of weeks and let everyone know the results. Mineral program is Cargill right now - free choice. Pasture is bermuda/bahia mix - out running the cows. Currently no supplements due to sufficient forage analysis. Cows are BCS 4 to 6 and gaining.

Thanks.

 

[KNERSIE]

This year was: Cattle Master 4 +VL5,

How much time between vaccinating and breeding season?

Cu deficiency?

 

[Conagher]

This year was: Cattle Master 4 +VL5,

How much time between vaccinating and breeding season? approx. 4 months

Cu deficiency?

??? Soil analysis says copper level is high in my area. Free choice mineral (Cargill Right Now) appears to have reasonable amount.

Good to see you posting KNERSIE!

 

[KNERSIE]

This year was: Cattle Master 4 +VL5,

How much time between vaccinating and breeding season? approx. 4 months

Cu deficiency?

??? Soil analysis says copper level is high in my area. Free choice mineral (Cargill Right Now) appears to have reasonable amount.

Good to see you posting KNERSIE!

It seems that it isn't the usual suspects then! Your experience is very typical of Cu deficiency, but then you'll need to live in a Cu deficient area. Cu overdose is also toxic with similar results

Have you watched him closely when he breeds? Not a skew penis, or lack of breeding ability?