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MF135

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What's the most one could justifiably pay for a herd bull if its sole use was servicing 40-50 cows a year in a commercial operation? I think I'm getting a little carried away w/ what I'm looking at.
Thanks
 
MF135":2526ljsx said:
What's the most one could justifiably pay for a herd bull if its sole use was servicing 40-50 cows a year in a commercial operation? I think I'm getting a little carried away w/ what I'm looking at.
Thanks
I paid $3000 for one 5 years ago for a similar situation and have never regretted it. Still using him. I think average bull prices are less now than 5 years ago and you can probably get an exceptionable bull for less than 3k now.
 
I have seen several sales on rfd this spring. Seems like a lot bulls bring less than the floor they set, usually $1500. To me, these bulls have good numbers, good pedigrees and appear to have no major flaws. But that is what I see in the 30 secs. they are on the screen. I think good bulls can be bought for less if you do your home work before the sale. Maybe a day or two after the sale might good time to go bull shopp[ng.
 
I think it would depend on your cow herd and your goals. If you have some pretty good cows with decent genetics and your goals don't involve pushing the genetics higher, you could get by for under $2500. If you want to advance genetics in the herd quicker, you are might have to pay a bit more. I guess the other dependant is how long the bull would stick around. Many times they have to grow wheels after just a couple years because his daughters are entering the herd. Personally I wouldn't spend over $3000 on a natural service bull.
 
novaman":1k17y9nf said:
I think it would depend on your cow herd and your goals. If you have some pretty good cows with decent genetics and your goals don't involve pushing the genetics higher, you could get by for under $2500. If you want to advance genetics in the herd quicker, you are might have to pay a bit more. I guess the other dependent is how long the bull would stick around. Many times they have to grow wheels after just a couple years because his daughters are entering the herd. Personally I wouldn't spend over $3000 on a natural service bull.

The $3k limit is about what I thought too. I'm looking for a terminal sire as I already have a good base of young cows and I'm close to full capacity. Even If I decided to keep a few heifers, I;ve never had any problems breeding a bull back to his daughters. Are calving ease, BW, and WW the only EPD numbers you would consider when purchasing a terminal bull?

I have relatively zero experience in AI. Is there any benefit AI'ing in a commercial operation? Appreciate all your help!
 
MF135":u43kazpb said:
novaman":u43kazpb said:
I think it would depend on your cow herd and your goals. If you have some pretty good cows with decent genetics and your goals don't involve pushing the genetics higher, you could get by for under $2500. If you want to advance genetics in the herd quicker, you are might have to pay a bit more. I guess the other dependent is how long the bull would stick around. Many times they have to grow wheels after just a couple years because his daughters are entering the herd. Personally I wouldn't spend over $3000 on a natural service bull.

The $3k limit is about what I thought too. I'm looking for a terminal sire as I already have a good base of young cows and I'm close to full capacity. Even If I decided to keep a few heifers, I;ve never had any problems breeding a bull back to his daughters. Are calving ease, BW, and WW the only EPD numbers you would consider when purchasing a terminal bull?

I have relatively zero experience in AI. Is there any benefit AI'ing in a commercial operation? Appreciate all your help!
Last one first, yes there. It allows a more deversived bull selection to balance whatyou're looking for.
If for a terminal bull all you're interested in is pounds at weaning that's about the only ones that would matter. If you'r going to retain ownership then you should look at YW and the carcass traits too.
 
MF135":jwc2d51k said:
novaman":jwc2d51k said:
I think it would depend on your cow herd and your goals. If you have some pretty good cows with decent genetics and your goals don't involve pushing the genetics higher, you could get by for under $2500. If you want to advance genetics in the herd quicker, you are might have to pay a bit more. I guess the other dependent is how long the bull would stick around. Many times they have to grow wheels after just a couple years because his daughters are entering the herd. Personally I wouldn't spend over $3000 on a natural service bull.

The $3k limit is about what I thought too. I'm looking for a terminal sire as I already have a good base of young cows and I'm close to full capacity. Even If I decided to keep a few heifers, I;ve never had any problems breeding a bull back to his daughters.
In one sentence you say you are looking for a TERMINAL sire. Then in the next sentence you say that not only would you keep replacemants from the TERMINAL sire but that you would breed them back to their own father. Doesn't sound like the best plan to me!!!!!!! Are calving ease, BW, and WW the only EPD numbers you would consider when purchasing a terminal bull? There's so many variables involved with an snswer to that question how can anyone know where to start.
The short answer is no they would not necessarily be the only variables.


I have relatively zero experience in AI. Is there any benefit AI'ing in a commercial operation? Appreciate all your help!
If you think you are going to breed 40 to 50 cows with one bull you better strongly consider AI. At least if you do that you can keep replacements out of the AI sires. Plus if you AI then even with a 50% success rate on the AI the bull will still only have to breed 20 to 25 cows
 
I shared my bull with my neighbor last summer. This meant that my bull had to cover a much larger area since my neighbors cows tended to stay on his place and my cows on my place even though the gate between our adjoining fields was open. The bull had to go back and forth to find out who is in heat.

Last spring my calves were all born within 21 days (one cycle). This appears to be the result of having my bull and cows in close quarters in my rotational grazing system the previous summer.

This spring it appears that while all of my heifers and cows preg checked as pregnant in Nov, the calving is much more spread out time wise. I think this is a result of my bull having to cover basically two different groups spread out. I am hoping they all calve within 2 cycles/45 days but really would like them much tighter.

I would be concerned about one bull, especially a virgin yearling bull, trying to cover "40-50" cows over what must be a larger area. He may be able to service them but your calving dates may be quite extended. I don't know if that's important to you but a tight calving season is very important to me.

jmho. Jim
 
Conventional wisdom says 1 cow for every month of age of the bull. That would be in the more conventional 45-60 day breeding season.
 
3waycross":bex84gmo said:
In one sentence you say you are looking for a TERMINAL sire. Then in the next sentence you say that not only would you keep replacemants from the TERMINAL sire but that you would breed them back to their own father. Doesn't sound like the best plan to me!!!!!!!
If you think you are going to breed 40 to 50 cows with one bull you better strongly consider AI. At least if you do that you can keep replacements out of the AI sires. Plus if you AI then even with a 50% success rate on the AI the bull will still only have to breed 20 to 25 cows


I just used the term 'terminal' to either mean a continental breed or a bull w/ high growth epds.(as opposed to maternal quality EPDs) Quality heifers could come from either. I had always heard breeding heifers backed to their sire increased the heterosis; one of the main reasons for line breeding/inbreeding. No? One mature bull should have no problem servicing 40 cows. My cows start calvin early feb and the last one drops mid april. I only have 200acres so I guess 'gettin to em' has never been an issue.
 
SRbeef: I've heard tell of disaster stories with graziers mixing two or more groups of dairy heifers. Even though they're all in the one area they tend to keep to their own groups and the owners can find one group in-calf in the first three weeks... the other group start calving three weeks later.

I thought the word 'terminal' had a standard meaning. As in: not going to breed from the progeny. Increase the heterosis by inbreeding? :lol: :lol: :lol: :clap:

MF135":2me2xl35 said:
I just used the term 'terminal' to either mean a continental breed or a bull w/ high growth epds.(as opposed to maternal quality EPDs) Quality heifers could come from either. I had always heard breeding heifers backed to their sire increased the heterosis; one of the main reasons for line breeding/inbreeding. No? One mature bull should have no problem servicing 40 cows. My cows start calvin early feb and the last one drops mid april. I only have 200acres so I guess 'gettin to em' has never been an issue.
 
regolith":1m6bnk2t said:
I thought the word 'terminal' had a standard meaning. As in: not going to breed from the progeny.
The standard term is that terminal means all calves go to the feedlot with none kept for breeding purposes.

That;s the daughters calving ease and milk aren;t of interest with a terminal bull.
 
Just what im trying this next fall 32 cows A.I day 1(whatever day) hopefully get 50 to60% bred lease a bull put him in 14 days later keep him in around 30 days for 2 heat cycles pull him out. 30 days later preg check (blood type) anything not bred has to go. i hope this wll group my calves better and let me know what cows are not cycling right.
 
MF135":lw2pgjtu said:
3waycross":lw2pgjtu said:
In one sentence you say you are looking for a TERMINAL sire. Then in the next sentence you say that not only would you keep replacemants from the TERMINAL sire but that you would breed them back to their own father. Doesn't sound like the best plan to me!!!!!!!
If you think you are going to breed 40 to 50 cows with one bull you better strongly consider AI. At least if you do that you can keep replacements out of the AI sires. Plus if you AI then even with a 50% success rate on the AI the bull will still only have to breed 20 to 25 cows


I had always heard breeding heifers backed to their sire increased the heterosis; one of the main reasons for line breeding/inbreeding. No?


I am done posting on this thread. Anything I can possibly say in response to that statement will be inflamatory. Best of luck...3way
 
MF135":itk1fswi said:
I had always heard breeding heifers backed to their sire increased the heterosis; one of the main reasons for line breeding/inbreeding. No?


I am done posting on this thread. Anything I can possibly say in response to that statement will be inflamatory. Best of luck...3way
[/quote]

So in your opinion, the term "a terminal bull" is subjective to the operation he services? I thought the word was more specific to the bull itself w/ regards to his offspring's characteristics.
I miswrote. Should have said increased the homozygosity. Homozygosity rapidly increases, creating uniformity and prepotency. Prepotency means that more desirable genes are present and that they transmit to offspring with greater uniformity and frequency. Inbred and/or highly linebred lines can be crossed for superior results. Bulls from these lines can be used to great advantage in outcross herds. Although it may look like a disadvantage on the surface, inbreeding forces out latent weaknesses so carrier animals and defective ones can be eliminated from the gene pool. The chief advantages of inbreeding are: It helps to uncover undesirable recessive genes so that animals possessing them may be culled; it may be used to develop uniform and distinct families so that interfamily selection may be more effectively practiced; new and often superior groups of animals may be produced by combining two or more inbred lines; it increases prepotency by increasing the chances that animals will pass on their traits to their offspring; and it is useful in maintaining a high relationship of stock to an especially desirable ancestor. I do realize though that over inbreeding will lead to inbreeding depression.
 
I would say that he is new to cattle and does not have any real life experience with cattle.

Also, using Wikipedia as a reference is not always a valid source. The reason is that anybody can revise or add to the subject. It isn't a trusted source. Our daughter's high school teachers will not allow the students to use Wikipedia as a reference for research papers.
 
chippie":114v0719 said:
Also, using Wikipedia as a reference is not always a valid source. The reason is that anybody can revise or add to the subject. It isn't a trusted source. Our daughter's high school teachers will not allow the students to use Wikipedia as a reference for research papers.


That's from Oklahoma State University Ag Dept., not wikipedia. I will admit, OSU has far more experience than I do.
 
MF135":18u8gnjj said:
So in your opinion, the term "a terminal bull" is subjective to the operation he services? I thought the word was more specific to the bull itself w/ regards to his offspring's characteristics.
Terminal is the end no offpsring will be used to reproduce. We've used a couple of anus bulls as terminal and some continental bulls as maternal (to produce replacements).
 

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