Bull price reasoning

[Angus Cowman]

So again, Angus cowman, you get close to making the point I would hope you would make and then go off and rip small breeders again. Are small breeders the only ones who try to sell papers and not quality? Are there any large breeders not guilty of forgiving some below average animal because they have to sell 100 bulls instead of 90 or 99? Your last two sentences are right on the money. IF ALL BREEDERS AND MULTIPLIERS were to use their sharp knife like they use their computer, semen tank, skill set, and knowledge, genetic improvement would be a whole lot easier to justify a price for a bull. KMacGinley, you possess exactly the kind of DISCIPLINE all seedstock people need to have. No matter the wean weight or show records or carcass scans, that animal had better be as complete as possible to pass along their genetic contribution.

I agree with this statement Capt. and I wasn't trying to rip small breeders but in my exp I have seen alot more small breeders that don't cull like they should more than I have big breeders mainly because there is more small breeders out there and a big breeder can't stay big if he keeps consistantly selling crap

I know several small breeders that raise some dam fine bulls and hfrs and they may sell 4-5 of them a yr and there are some idiot buyers that won't buy from them also because they can go down the road and buy a papered bull that should have been a steer for $400 cheaper and they b-tch because their calves turn out to be crap
I feel that the small breeder has to sell his animals too cheap because they have to compete with Multipliers

 

[Australian]

I never sell any bull under $2,000. i would be very suspicious if I was offered a bull for under that price. There are lots of cattlebreeders out there that still look for that cheap bull. Buy one cheap you usually get ordinary progeny. I still have people ask for a reduction in my asking price. I'm sorry but they usually go home without a bull.
Colin

 

[cypressfarms]

I know several small breeders that raise some dam fine bulls and hfrs and they may sell 4-5 of them a yr and there are some idiot buyers that won't buy from them also because they can go down the road and buy a papered bull that should have been a steer for $400 cheaper and they b-tch because their calves turn out to be crap
I feel that the small breeder has to sell his animals too cheap because they have to compete with Multipliers

This is definitely true! I have purchased some really nice stock from smaller cattlemen at a cheaper price, solely because they have to work harder (read drop prices slightly) at potential sales. If you are buying, as long as you have a discernable eye, you may get as good or better quality for that lower price.

Example: Two years ago I visited a local small beefmaster breeder. He showed me everything he had for sale, which was 13 head. I made him an offer for all 13. He really wasn't prepared for that type of sale. Although I did cull a couple, most of the beefmaster cows and heifers he had were registered and looked just as good as what you'd buy at any sale. Got a really good deal for the whole package. However, if I had made the same proposition to a large breeder, they'd probably said no thanks because the selling price per cow being too low. The larger breeder generally has more "bites" on cattle so they can be more choosy about bargaining.

 

[dun]

Last year when I was looking for a bull I traveled a circuit of about 100 miles in all directions from us. People had called me before this asking about RA bulls and I directed them to a guy that lives about 10 minutes from me. I had never given him a thought when I started looking for a bull myself. I drove the 10 minutes, he brought in the only 2 bulls he had left, a half hour later I was unloading one of them in my pasture. He was far and away the best of any of the bulls I had looked at in my distant travels. He only runs around 75 cows and culls mercilously. There is one thing I don;t care for in this bull, (his grandsire) but his calves will be treated strictly as terminals so it won;t have any affect on the overall herd. He sells his bulls from 1500 to 3-4000 depending on the individual bull. He considered this bull a tail ender. We'll know in late March if he lives up to our expectations.
With only a couple of registered cows last year was the first bull calf that we felt had any promise. At 10 months he has completely fallen apart and will probably be nutted in March and shipped with the last of last years steers.

 

[turning grass into beef]

This subject was discussed on this board a little over a year ago. The following is what I posted at that time.

The following is my way of deciding what to pay for a bull. Take it for what it is worth. The first thing to consider is that feeding a good quality bull year round costs the same as feeding a poor quality bull, so that is a wash. The next thing I assume is that you will use a bull on average for 3 years and on average he will sire 33 calves per year. For round figures we will use 100 calves sired in his lifetime. Let's assume that a poor quality bull costs $1000. A bull that costs $2000 will have to return $10 more per calf that the $1000 bull. If you sell 500 pound calves that is a $0.02 per pound difference. 2 questions then have to be analyzed. 1) Will the calves sired by the good bull bring a premium of $0.02 or more because of their quality? and 2) Will the calves off the good bull weigh more (at the same age), thus you will have more pounds of calf to sell.
If you are keeping your own replacements a third question that will need to be considered is; How will a better quality bull improve my cowherd and thus my calf crop in years to come?
We raise and sell 2 year old purebred shorthorn bulls. We use our bulls, as well as buy purebred 2 year old horned hereford bulls to use in our commercial cow herd. Based on the reasons stated above we have no problem paying between $3000 and $4000 for a bull if we feel his quality justifies the price.

 

[Angus Cowman]

This subject was discussed on this board a little over a year ago. The following is what I posted at that time.

The following is my way of deciding what to pay for a bull. Take it for what it is worth. The first thing to consider is that feeding a good quality bull year round costs the same as feeding a poor quality bull, so that is a wash. The next thing I assume is that you will use a bull on average for 3 years and on average he will sire 33 calves per year. For round figures we will use 100 calves sired in his lifetime. Let's assume that a poor quality bull costs $1000. A bull that costs $2000 will have to return $10 more per calf that the $1000 bull. If you sell 500 pound calves that is a $0.02 per pound difference. 2 questions then have to be analyzed. 1) Will the calves sired by the good bull bring a premium of $0.02 or more because of their quality? and 2) Will the calves off the good bull weigh more (at the same age), thus you will have more pounds of calf to sell.
If you are keeping your own replacements a third question that will need to be considered is; How will a better quality bull improve my cowherd and thus my calf crop in years to come?
We raise and sell 2 year old purebred shorthorn bulls. We use our bulls, as well as buy purebred 2 year old horned hereford bulls to use in our commercial cow herd. Based on the reasons stated above we have no problem paying between $3000 and $4000 for a bull if we feel his quality justifies the price.

That is the point I was trying to make in my original post Thank you

 

[turning grass into beef]

Just to expand a little further on my previous post... I our area, the only bulls that you will find for $1000 are those that are going through the sale barn and have been culled for one reason or another. Most will fall in one of three groups, either they are 1) good quality but have failed their semen test, 2) they have an injury, or 3 ) are pure crap.
$1500 is the lowest amount that you will pay for a bull. Personally I think if a bull is only worth $1500 then it probably should have been a steer. $2000 to $2500 will get you good bull. $3000 to $4000 will buy excellent quality bulls. (these numbers are for 2 year old bulls)

A few days ago took pictures and videos of some of the bulls that we will have in our sale this year. I will post them when I get a chance to take them off the camera.

 

[Limomike]

Just to expand a little further on my previous post... I our area, the only bulls that you will find for $1000 are those that are going through the sale barn and have been culled for one reason or another. Most will fall in one of three groups, either they are 1) good quality but have failed their semen test, 2) they have an injury, or 3 ) are pure crap.
$1500 is the lowest amount that you will pay for a bull. Personally I think if a bull is only worth $1500 then it probably should have been a steer. $2000 to $2500 will get you good bull. $3000 to $4000 will buy excellent quality bulls. (these numbers are for 2 year old bulls)

A few days ago took pictures and videos of some of the bulls that we will have in our sale this year. I will post them when I get a chance to take them off the camera.

Kinda like "you get what you pay for" notion. I dont mind paying a good price for one, but main thing is I dont want him to fall apart when he hits my pasture with the "girls". He's gotta be able to walk the walk, and do his job and keep up mainly on grass around my place.

 

[turning grass into beef]

exactly Limomike. This is why we only sell two year olds and will only buy two year olds. After switching to selling only two years olds (about 5 years ago) there is no way I would ever buy a yearling for the commercial cows again. Sometimes a calf looks great while nursing the cow and does great that first winter on feed. But when turned back onto grass the next summer, that is where the rubber hits the road. We make all of our bull prove themselves on grass as yearlings. It sure makes culling for the bull sale the following year easier. It also ensures that our customers will be getting a bull that turns grass into beef and doesn't rely on grain supplementation to get the job done.
Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with using a yearling bull. We sometimes use some of our yearling bulls that we sell the next year. All I am saying is that a bull does not show his ability to maintain his condition on grass until you make him do just that. If you buy a yearling bull (around here anyway) he has not had a chance to do that.

 

[Brandonm22]

exactly Limomike. This is why we only sell two year olds and will only buy two year olds. After switching to selling only two years olds (about 5 years ago) there is no way I would ever buy a yearling for the commercial cows again. Sometimes a calf looks great while nursing the cow and does great that first winter on feed. But when turned back onto grass the next summer, that is where the rubber hits the road. We make all of our bull prove themselves on grass as yearlings. It sure makes culling for the bull sale the following year easier. It also ensures that our customers will be getting a bull that turns grass into beef and doesn't rely on grain supplementation to get the job done.
Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with using a yearling bull. We sometimes use some of our yearling bulls that we sell the next year. All I am saying is that a bull does not show his ability to maintain his condition on grass until you make him do just that. If you buy a yearling bull (around here anyway) he has not had a chance to do that.

Whether he is grass finished or fed out on grain a two year old is a whole lot less likely too fall apart than a yearling since the majority of his growth curve is behind him and that means less guys demanding that you buy their skinny bull back.

 

[novatech]

I sold a very good bull cheap. Hopefully it will be to my future benefit. The man did not want a Brahman. Because of past carcass evaluations (genetics) and dna testing I convinced him to try the bull. Carcass evaluations will be done on his progeny, along with feed lot tests. If it pans out he will be back. All data will be available to me. Hopefully this will turn out to profitable in the future. It is hard for the little guy to get a name built up. Best part is it beats the H out of turning him into hamburger.

 

[angus9259]

I can see the $5000 bull in theory and for a seedstock producer you probably would need to be out on that razor's edge of perfection (or why not just keep your best calf?); but for a commercial cattleman I would be kind of scared to buy from a guy who had 80 bulls for sale and he only had 5 who would improve my cows. I know that it gets increasingly hard for a progressive producer who has spent 20 years improving a herd of cows; but if the guy has 80 bulls in an offering it ought to be hard for me to find 40 I don't like. IF most of the bulls have "REAL" flaws in them and paying $5000 for the #3 bull in the sale is the only way I can get a good one, I don't know that I need to be buying from that guy. I am kind of the view that their average needs to be pretty darn good, because in most populations the best will breed back towards his herd's average and if their avg SUCKS in all likelihood you aren't going to be to happy with their best.

This is my theory on bull PRODUCTION. My goal is to have a consistent enough herd that it's hard to tell my best bull from my worst because they're all good. I think that's one thing my customers are buying from me - consistency. That said, I am also able to make them more affordably since I'll have more available. I read from a frustrated commercial person on this board that one of the reasons seedstock producers only keep the best 5% for bulls is to keep prices up when, in reality, the best 50% should still be herd improvers for most people and help keep their costs down at the same time.

 

[cedar]

As a small seedstock producer, the number of years a producer has been in business is a plus of course, but our one main goal is to increase the commercial producers bottom line. We are not interested in producing cow fresheners, our interest is to produce bulls that will fill this goal. This in turn produces heifers for replacement for our own herd which in turn produces the better bulls for our customers. It all is a spiral.
Jeff
www.cedarbrooksteading.com

 

[Willow Springs]

When looking at what I will pay for a bull I just follow a formula:

$2000 purchase price-1200 salvage+1000 upkeep=$2800/(3 years x 30 calves/year)= $31/calf from the bull

$3000 = $42/calf
$5000 = $53/calf
$10,000 = $109/calf

Basically I do this to remind myself that really there is very little difference between a $2000 bull and $5000 bull when you break it down per calf. In our country $2000 bulls are usually bottom end and the $5000 might be the sale topper with $3000 being about average. Over the long run the $5000 bull only cost you $22 per calf more, and if you do some homework will probably add more value than that $22. This is especially true if you have a Purebred herd; sons/daughters from the better bulls are hopefully worth more, you may be able to re-market the bull as a four or five year old for more than cull price, etc.

There is more risk when you buy the more expensive bull (death, injury, not as good a bull as you thought), but buying bulls becasue they are cheap won't always be profitable either. I do agree that you can find some very good bulls by looking around at the smaller breeders herds for very reasonable prices; flashy promotion costs money.

 

[Brandonm22]

This is my theory on bull PRODUCTION. My goal is to have a consistent enough herd that it's hard to tell my best bull from my worst because they're all good. I think that's one thing my customers are buying from me - consistency. That said, I am also able to make them more affordably since I'll have more available. I read from a frustrated commercial person on this board that one of the reasons seedstock producers only keep the best 5% for bulls is to keep prices up when, in reality, the best 50% should still be herd improvers for most people and help keep their costs down at the same time.

Exactly, in a really really good herd it should be very very difficult to identify both the bottom 50% that get cut AND the top 5%. Ideally most of the difference is pounds and ratios and not structural and soundness issues, eye appeal, or muscle score. IF it is real easy to just eyeball all the bulls you need to cut; then I think there are some consistancy problems with that herd. Maybe I am demanding too much here, but that middle of the road bull that brings ~$2400 in a bull sale that averages $3000 ought to improve most commercial herds just like the $5000 bull that sold at the front end of the bull sale. I am not telling people NOT to go out and buy the highest ratioing, best EPD, best total performance bull at a sale and pay $5000 for him; just that I would be very afraid of a sale offering where there were major easily eyeballed differences between those front end bulls and his 3/4 sibs selling 70 bulls deeper in the sale order.

 

[lakading]

When looking at what I will pay for a bull I just follow a formula:

$2000 purchase price-1200 salvage+1000 upkeep=$2800/(3 years x 30 calves/year)= $31/calf from the bull

$2,000 purchase price - $1,200 salvage = $800

$800 + $1,000 up keep = $1,800

$1,800/90 = $20/calf

 

[HOSS]

My basic rule is 5x what a 500+ pound quality steer will bring. In my case that makes the bull I look at in the 2500.00 range. For that 2500.00 I expect decent balanced EPD's, good phenotype and good genetics from a reputable breeder. The breeders I shop at have good reps and they all use AI and ET methods offering a good range of differing genetics and EPD's. I also expect the bull to pass a BSE before purchase or a money back gaurantee if the bull doesn't.

That being said I am not against paying a little more if the bull is worth it or less if it meets my requirements and is a bargain.

 

[Angus Cowman]

My basic rule is 5x what a 500+ pound quality steer will bring. In my case that makes the bull I look at in the 2500.00 range. For that 2500.00 I expect decent balanced EPD's, good phenotype and good genetics from a reputable breeder. The breeders I shop at have good reps and they all use AI and ET methods offering a good range of differing genetics and EPD's. I also expect the bull to pass a BSE before purchase or a money back gaurantee if the bull doesn't.

That being said I am not against paying a little more if the bull is worth it or less if it meets my requirements and is a bargain.

Hoss if that was say 2 yrs ago when a 5 wght was bringing $1.35pr lb would you give $3375 for a bull or if you could sell 550lb calves at the same age, out of a little better bull wouldn't that be the same

What I was trying to get across was if I can take an average bull at $2500 or a top bull at say $4000 and increase my weaning weights by 50lbs or in my case my yearling weights and carcass and get a $100 premium over a $50 premium than I am better off and I know that it is harder for a person with an avg size herd to justify this

 

[Willow Springs]

$2,000 purchase price - $1,200 salvage = $800

$800 + $1,000 up keep = $1,800

$1,800/90 = $20/calf

Ya, sorry my math was a little out :dunce: The $2000 bull is $20/calf and the $3000 bull is $31/calf; the other two were correct. I guess my point being that there still really isn't much difference when you break it down by cost/calf. Doesn't mean that the more expensive bull is better, but if you have done your homework and the bull you want is just a little higher than you want don't be afraid to pay a bit more.

 

[Aero]

So I am sorry if I offended you Aero

i am sorry i missed the response to this one.

it doesnt offend me, it just sounds like you are making the exception sound like the rule.