Bull Management Question

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cypressfarms":19wldkee said:
Nice looking cattle there SRBeef,

I'm curious about the corn. Did you plant this corn specifically for the cows to have for the winter? We don't really see that done down here. Not sure if that would be better/worse than ryegrass, but I'd be interested in finding out. I'm not really set up to plant row crops, but I bet with the old big Ford tractor, something could be worked out.
I've never seen it either.
We have certainly turned cows in on corn stalks after corn was harvested. Have also cut, shocked, and ground corn and stalk together. But never corn just for grazing.

Maybe they can't grow anything in the winter like we grow ryegrass here.
 
I have never seen anybody leave corn on the stalk for wintering cows; but a whole lot of hunting clubs and the National Wildlife Refuge in Eufaula leave portions of their corn crop on the stalk to winter wildlife.
 
Ok. For those who do not want to go to the link, and because I am bored......
Grazing (and mowing!) Standing Corn Stalks
by SRBeef on Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:31 pm

I have some very good corn in WI which I was intending to combine then graze. However due to late planting/floods, etc. the corn is about a month behind - very good potential but unlikely to be dry enough to economically harvest and time soon. With the very dry Aug and Sep pastures are about done for the year. Hay is expensive.

My plan was to graze the stalks last year but a late crop and early snow really limited the grazing time.
The original intention was not to graze the corn this way. It was a very good plan B to keep it from being a wash. And we definately cannot grow ryegrass or anything like it in the winter here ~ there is over 12 inches of snow on the frozen solid ground.
 
cypressfarms":3n56hnnh said:
Nice looking cattle there SRBeef,

I'm curious about the corn. Did you plant this corn specifically for the cows to have for the winter? We don't really see that done down here. Not sure if that would be better/worse than ryegrass, but I'd be interested in finding out. I'm not really set up to plant row crops, but I bet with the old big Ford tractor, something could be worked out.

Sorry to take so long to reply. As Angie's link points out, no, I did not intend to graze un-harvested stalks. The plan was to harvest the corn with a combine then graze whatever is left over behind the combine. There generally is some corn ears lost by the corn head and lots of cobs etc coming out the back of the combine along with the stalk portion still standing.

Historically this grazing of harvested stalks was common in the corn belt when many farmers had corn AND cattle and combines lost quite a bit of corn. Nowadays combines are losing very little corn so most of the grazing is stalks not ears and few corn growers have cattle or fences to hold them. You still see it sometimes on the western edge of the corn belt where cattle and corn meet.

One benefit is that it provides some grazing at a time and in areas where the only alternative is to feed hay or stored feeds, both of which are expensive and equipment intensive. I am thinking more and more about doing a small area of corn and intentionally leaving it unharvested every fall for grazing just like this. There is an incredible amount of potential feed out there per acre. And leaving it standing makes it more accessible to the cattle in the deep snow we've had the past two winters.

One problem to be aware of if you try this is to beware of nitrate poisoning. I almost lost a cow due to it. I think I described that above. Don't use as much N fertilizer as you would for harvesting grain. This also reduces the cost.

I stopped by a livestock auction the other day and sat through some of it. Some very nice, good looking 400 lb weaned steer calves with shots sold for about 65 cents a pound. I'll be darned if I am going to go through all this trouble and sell calves for 65 cents a pound. How can you stay in business with prices like that? These should have sold for 1.20-1.30 in the past. I had to really sit on my hands and count to 10 to avoid bidding on them.

Grazing the corn seems to me like it will let me finish my own - sort of like a self-service feedlot!

I don't know if this would work in Louisiana but it might. If you have the time to manage it, I think what I would do is to try a small patch of field corn, just a little N, RR makes weed control easier, let it mature down to about 25% moisture (higher moisture means more tummy aches) and let them graze the standing stalks for maybe 3-4 hours a day to start and see how it goes. I would not make this standing corn their only source of feed. I have hay available free choice at all times and that keeps the rumen going. You also need good mineral with some protein available.

Then compare the cow days you get from the corn to any other alternative grazing this time of year such as stockpiled fescue? It may depend on your operation, goals and time available.

There were a couple head we harvested in Nov after about 6 weeks on the corn and I think you could really see more marbling in the beef. I am looking forward to checking out the beef from steers we will harvest in spring after grazing longer.

Your climate is very different. I would experiment on a small scale before doing a lot of this grazing of corn. However with cattle prices the way they are I think we need to look at doing SOMETHING different. jmho.

Good luck.
 
It's a bit off topic...

At which ground temperatures is the coldest that you can plant corn succesfully? The reason for asking is I want to plant some sweetcorn under irrigation to hopefully hit the just before Christmas market, but my farm is a bit colder than the rest in the area because I don't get much afternoon sun because of mountains.

According to others in the area that had done it before they plant by 10 Sept to get the corn out of the ground by 20 Sept to start picking around 16 Dec. Being a late farm ideally I'd like to plant about two weeks earlier, but ground temperatures worries me a bit.

If the rests are baled for baleage how many bales can be expected per acre? (I'll do the converting to understandable units ;-) )
 
KNERSIE":2b419tpk said:
It's a bit off topic...

At which ground temperatures is the coldest that you can plant corn succesfully? The reason for asking is I want to plant some sweetcorn under irrigation to hopefully hit the just before Christmas market, but my farm is a bit colder than the rest in the area because I don't get much afternoon sun because of mountains.

According to others in the area that had done it before they plant by 10 Sept to get the corn out of the ground by 20 Sept to start picking around 16 Dec. Being a late farm ideally I'd like to plant about two weeks earlier, but ground temperatures worries me a bit.

If the rests are baled for baleage how many bales can be expected per acre? (I'll do the converting to understandable units ;-) )

Corn requires a mid day soil temperature of at least 50 degrees F to germinate. 52-54 degrees is better. And this should be a 2" depth. You really don't want it sitting in colder damp soil for very long.

I don't really know about baled tonnage. Good luck.
 
Thanks, this thread have given me a few ideas to overbridge that midwinter slump in the forage flow. Even 54F wouldn't be much of a problem in early Sept.

How many grazing days per acre did you get out of the corn?
 
KNERSIE":n5i15qvm said:
Thanks, this thread have given me a few ideas to overbridge that midwinter slump in the forage flow. Even 54F wouldn't be much of a problem in early Sept.

How many grazing days per acre did you get out of the corn?

Earlier in the experiment I had them on the corn only and figured somewhere about 250-300 cow days/acre.

It depends on how much you limit them and how much of the stalks do you make them eat. From what I have learned, nitrates are higher in the parts of the plant closer to the ground. Ears have little nitrates. If you do this just go light on the N fertilizer. Good luck.
 
Man, I gotta stop working so much. I got a million questions about grazing standing corn. Is there a website that will start me? With 120 cows, how many acres do I need to plant? They say don't put on too much N, but how much is too much. If anyone can help , I'll appreciate it. Thanks
 
plumber_greg":1o64fesb said:
Man, I gotta stop working so much. I got a million questions about grazing standing corn. Is there a website that will start me? With 120 cows, how many acres do I need to plant? They say don't put on too much N, but how much is too much. If anyone can help , I'll appreciate it. Thanks

You don't mention where you are located, however here is a DeKalb seed publication aimed at Western Canadaassumes no knowledge of growing corn etc. but provides some useful in formation for the northern US:

http://www.dekalb.ca/content/pdf/products/west/Corn/corn_grazing_guide.pdf

If you enter "grazing corn stalks" in google you will get a lot of material, usually put out by the state universities. Most of this info however assumes the stalks are harvested first. The DeKalb brochure is a place to start. Location determines a lot of how applicable this is.

About N - the Dekalb brochure says to wait to graze the standing corn until after the first frost. I suspect that has to do with nitrates also. Personally I am going to apply about 1/2 of normal N compared to if I was harvesting grain. I normally use 120 units so I am going to try 60 units of N but my soils are probably different from yours. Where are you located? It helps to put at least a state in your info.
 
I took the advice of several posters here and sorted the cows out of the corn grazing group today.

Last week I put the steers in with the Bull/cow group which is grazing standing corn. Today I sorted the cows out to be back on hay + mineral only with the heifers.

There is a shared 5 wire barb fence between the groups with electric wire offset inside.

Things went very smoothly. Everybody was real calm. I just opened a gate in the lane for the girls as they came by coming out of the corral after a sweet feed treat.

The bull just stayed behind. He spent a lot of time along the fence this afternoon - sort of looked like a guy when his girl friend dumps him - a little lost! It was a funny scene - boys on one side of the fence, girls on the other. Sort of like chaperoning a junior high dance!

I'm hoping my bull will have more interest in the corn when he gets hungry. Being across a fence line seemed to lower weaning stress. I'm hoping it does the same here.

Grazing the standing corn has really cut my hay expenses and I have a lot more of it than the bull and steers are going to be able to consume by thaw time. I would have liked to leave the cows in there longer but a couple are getting a bit "plump" on the corn and it is time as Angie and Knersie suggested.

Hopefully I will get the corn planted earlier this year and will know how to manage it better next fall. I plan on grazing some standing corn intentionally from now on - not by accident as occurred this year.

Weight watchers diet it is for the girls from now until calving in mid April! I don't want any calving problems. Lucky last year, not one problem.

Thanks to all for the advice.
 
dun":3g4eubjp said:
rockridgecattle":3g4eubjp said:
3. hiefers and cows should be fed differently.

Our heifers are fed exactly the same as the cows, that stands to reason since after they're weaned they're turned right back in with the cows. We've never had a problem with a heifer developed that way not turning into a good doing cow. They get AIed right along with the cows and are expected to keep up. Very rarely do we have one that doesn;t.

Dun, the problem we have here, I think is a climate one. Here we simply can NOT leave the calves with the cows for the winter. In our climate calves (heck cows for that matter) will lose weight during some of the weather we get. You live in an area wich very likely NEVER sees temps below -20C/0F here, we can have weeks of weather well below that. To have the calves still out with the cows would be difficult for them.

I expect that your calves gain over the winter, in your situation. Here for our calves to gain during the winter we need to feed some grain. Right now, we are feeding about 4 lbs of rolled barley to our heifers every day. I expect that the highest gain we are getting will be just under 2 lbs/day and the average will be around 1.5 lbs/day, and they are certainly not getting fat.

It is often recommended here, to separate not only the calves, but also the bred heifers/3 year olds and old cows as well. And manage the groups separately, on the simple fact that the smaller and/or more feeble animals cannot compete for food well with the healthy mature cows. We usually winter our herd as one group, but on the odd year we have separated the groups and you can see a difference between bred heifers that were wintered with the cows, and ones that were wintered by themselves.
 
randiliana":2h1jhd9j said:
dun":2h1jhd9j said:
rockridgecattle":2h1jhd9j said:
3. hiefers and cows should be fed differently.

Our heifers are fed exactly the same as the cows, that stands to reason since after they're weaned they're turned right back in with the cows. We've never had a problem with a heifer developed that way not turning into a good doing cow. They get AIed right along with the cows and are expected to keep up. Very rarely do we have one that doesn;t.

Dun, the problem we have here, I think is a climate one. Here we simply can NOT leave the calves with the cows for the winter. In our climate calves (heck cows for that matter) will lose weight during some of the weather we get. You live in an area wich very likely NEVER sees temps below -20C/0F here, we can have weeks of weather well below that. To have the calves still out with the cows would be difficult for them.

I expect that your calves gain over the winter, in your situation. Here for our calves to gain during the winter we need to feed some grain. Right now, we are feeding about 4 lbs of rolled barley to our heifers every day. I expect that the highest gain we are getting will be just under 2 lbs/day and the average will be around 1.5 lbs/day, and they are certainly not getting fat.

It is often recommended here, to separate not only the calves, but also the bred heifers/3 year olds and old cows as well. And manage the groups separately, on the simple fact that the smaller and/or more feeble animals cannot compete for food well with the healthy mature cows. We usually winter our herd as one group, but on the odd year we have separated the groups and you can see a difference between bred heifers that were wintered with the cows, and ones that were wintered by themselves.

Perfect example of how/why one size does not fit all. We do things a lot differently here then we did in the Mojave Desert. Further south of us the cows wouldn't have to be as easy keepers as they do here because of the increased grazing and decreased cold.
That is the reason that animals must be selected to thrive not just survive in the cllimate/environment they will be in.
 
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