Bull losing condition

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ValleyView said:
Can't thank y'all enough for your input! I never in my wildest dreams would've imagined the loss of baby teeth for a sexually mature animal would be the likely culprit.

Here's to hoping some TLC, wormer and bigger chicklets will get this rascal back to fat(ish) and happy sooner rather than later.

Just proof that it sometimes takes a village to help an idiot!

They'll lose their two front teeth around two, can be a set back. Just being by himself will help.
 
alisonb said:
TCRanch are you a 'gents' :p



greggy said:
Have you considered finely chopping some feed, or feeding something in with other feed that is powdered...or ground sand like size...

It would be good to know if it is just that, I would prob do something like this when in a pen and see what a month of finer feed in similar quantity does....not walking around will help....so may worming if he has a load, but he should really be past that i would have thought ?

Greggy - have seen you mentioning feeding fine/powdered feed a couple of times. Cattle as you know are ruminants, a healthy efficient rumen is the ultimate. ;-)

http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/publications/understanding-the-ruminant-animal-digestive-system

Well, I didn't think so but was referred to as Sir on a previous post & Sky responded by saying I was a good looking transgender. I've been called worse! :lol:

Very interesting article, thanks for posting. I've had my share of hardware but have never actually seen the reticulum. All my cows/bulls now have magnets BTW.
 
alisonb said:
Yes Greggy, nothing wrong with what you suggested...was referring to some of your other posts. It shouldn't concern me but it would make me happy if you read that link and applied it to your cattle ;-)

Apologies for the hijack ValleyView :p

Why would you think i am ignoring the ruminant process ?

I will unashamedly admit I am here to learn.

I welcome vigourous, intelligent discussion, have little time for narrow views such as "you do it this way just cause, we always done it that way", with no regard to facts nor by experience.

So I would like it if you joined those other threads to share your wisdom, and help me correct any mistakes, or give me tips on what to look for etc. :cboy: :tiphat:
 
My bull is the same condition as yours. Looks terrible, hes a little older and putting weight on. Never would of dreamed of losing teeth being the culprit.
 
greggy said:
Why would you think i am ignoring the ruminant process ?

I will unashamedly admit I am here to learn.

I welcome vigourous, intelligent discussion, have little time for narrow views such as "you do it this way just cause, we always done it that way", with no regard to facts nor by experience. Me tooo :D

So I would like it if you joined those other threads to share your wisdom, and help me correct any mistakes, or give me tips on what to look for etc. :cboy: :tiphat: Regret I don't have the time to go back on the previous threads but one does come to mind "Corn"...apples & lupin ground to a powder, two carbs that will rapidly ferment. Large amounts or inconsistent feeding of carbs(especially fine) fed to ruminants interfere with the microflora and cause a shift in rumen pH which depresses intake of feed and may cause acidosis/rumenitis. You are no doubt feeding adequate roughage as well ;-) .
 
He only had 8 cows to cover at turnout at 16 months so he hasn't been pushed. I am unable to dry lot him so he has spent the winter with my covered cows.
ValleyView...there is a rule of thumb that a young bull in good condition and sans a tough environment/mismanagement/illness should be able to succesfully cover X number of females per his age in months, e.g. in your case 16 months at turn out = 16 females so obviously not overworked. Along with the good advice you've received thus far and providing he's not suffering from a yet undiagnosed debilitating ailment is his genetic propensity for maintaining condition, aka "fleshing ease". This is dependent on his breeder's genetic & mgt priorities. I wish you well with your bull.
 
ValleyView said:
Can't thank y'all enough for your input! I never in my wildest dreams would've imagined the loss of baby teeth for a sexually mature animal would be the likely culprit.

Here's to hoping some TLC, wormer and bigger chicklets will get this rascal back to fat(ish) and happy sooner rather than later.

Just proof that it sometimes takes a village to help an idiot!

Keep us posted. Some pics now to compare to future pics would be interesting.
 
alisonb said:
greggy said:
Why would you think i am ignoring the ruminant process ?

I will unashamedly admit I am here to learn.

I welcome vigourous, intelligent discussion, have little time for narrow views such as "you do it this way just cause, we always done it that way", with no regard to facts nor by experience. Me tooo :D

So I would like it if you joined those other threads to share your wisdom, and help me correct any mistakes, or give me tips on what to look for etc. :cboy: :tiphat: Regret I don't have the time to go back on the previous threads but one does come to mind "Corn"...apples & lupin ground to a powder, two carbs that will rapidly ferment. Large amounts or inconsistent feeding of carbs(especially fine) fed to ruminants interfere with the microflora and cause a shift in rumen pH which depresses intake of feed and may cause acidosis/rumenitis. You are no doubt feeding adequate roughage as well ;-) .

The negative aspects of feeding fine ground "corn" or other feed is grossly over stated. Most beef cattle seldom get "large" amount of feed and with most commercial feeds a very small percentage of that is actually "corn" and whether it is whole, chopped or ground is of little consequence. Dairy cattle consume from 28 to 32 lbs. of "grain" per day everyday with no real adverse affects as they also consume another 30-35 pounds of roughage. There will always be the occasional case of acidosis but will be a very small % of the entire herd. At the low rate many beef cattle are feed commercial feed the cattle hardly know they've been fed anyway.
 
Bingo.

I will wait for example of serious problems alongside the details of amounts etc.....I doubt they will come.

I could write a lot, but if no one has time for proper detailed discussion, then, what is the point.....I am hella busy too.......
 
I guess it is a waste of time pointing out lupin is mainly protein, not starch.....it compliments apple, which is low in protein...

It can cause acidosis .... that is true

In regard to op, if there is some assistance making limited feed more easily available by cutting etc, then would that not be a resonable action if it is a teething prob ?
 
ValleyView said:
Gents,
I have a coming 3yr old Hereford bull that I have owned since June 2019 that is not wintering well. He covered all cows and has been on easy street with plenty of June cut Bluestem (untested) hay and 3lbs daily of 16% commodity feed. He doesn't act sick but the bred cows he's being fed with are packing on condition and he looks to possibly be going backwards or just not gaining. Been going on 30 days and I've upped feed and hay, but little to no improvement. Last wormed 11/15/19 with Dectomax. Any thoughts or things to looks for? Going to worm him again next weekend but has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing?

Appreciate any input.

Had this problem once and it turned out to be Johnes. Hope this isn't the case for you.
 
TCRanch said:
alisonb said:
TCRanch are you a 'gents' :p



greggy said:
Have you considered finely chopping some feed, or feeding something in with other feed that is powdered...or ground sand like size...

It would be good to know if it is just that, I would prob do something like this when in a pen and see what a month of finer feed in similar quantity does....not walking around will help....so may worming if he has a load, but he should really be past that i would have thought ?

Greggy - have seen you mentioning feeding fine/powdered feed a couple of times. Cattle as you know are ruminants, a healthy efficient rumen is the ultimate. ;-)

http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/publications/understanding-the-ruminant-animal-digestive-system

Well, I didn't think so but was referred to as Sir on a previous post & Sky responded by saying I was a good looking transgender. I've been called worse! :lol:

Very interesting article, thanks for posting. I've had my share of hardware but have never actually seen the reticulum. All my cows/bulls now have magnets BTW.
Net wrap, baler twine and plastic grocery bags will be eaten by cows and this will make the get thinner and thinner and then die.
 
76 Bar said:
He only had 8 cows to cover at turnout at 16 months so he hasn't been pushed. I am unable to dry lot him so he has spent the winter with my covered cows.
ValleyView...there is a rule of thumb that a young bull in good condition and sans a tough environment/mismanagement/illness should be able to succesfully cover X number of females per his age in months, e.g. in your case 16 months at turn out = 16 females so obviously not overworked. Along with the good advice you've received thus far and providing he's not suffering from a yet undiagnosed debilitating ailment is his genetic propensity for maintaining condition, aka "fleshing ease". This is dependent on his breeder's genetic & mgt priorities. I wish you well with your bull.

He is registered, I will pull his EPD's tomorrow and see what they say. For reference, he was also ET calf.
 
greggy said:
I guess it is a waste of time pointing out lupin is mainly protein, not starch.....it compliments apple, which is low in protein...

It can cause acidosis .... that is true

In regard to op, if there is some assistance making limited feed more easily available by cutting etc, then would that not be a resonable action if it is a teething prob ?

Greggy - appreciate your insight. The bull and cows are all on a commodity ration with a fair dose of DDG's, rolled corn (I think) and 1/4 pellets among other feedstuffs. He held condition quite well on 20% range cubes so if it is his teeth I'd say I'm ahead of the curve, I hope...

He spent his first 16 months in an operation that is much different than mine and the wet winter and adjustment to my supplemental feeding program potentially compounded by new teeth may have created a perfect storm.

I also possibly blew it out of proportion as I am a worry wort, but have included pics from turnout on 6/16/19 and 2/4/2020. It was the fact my cows have bulked up nicely ahead of their late March calving date while he has lagged behind that made me worry and start the thread.

Thanks to all who commented, I will keep you posted.



 
Without being there, or trying to think of every aspect, at a glance, hard to tell from pics.....

He has a winter coat, that always makes things look different or rough if the hair grows a decent amount.

My thoughts on the cows was, they would be putting on weight, maybe a lot of water, cause are in calf.....I would think they would start to look a lot fuller.....

If the whole diet and game changed as well, then, yeah.......

I cannot remember, but have you compared weight, prior and now ? Or done a condition score or checks, prior, then too now ?

Sometimes my animals can look full, then kinda skinny, but if the fat and meat is same, then it is just rumen full, half or empty....

I am a newby, so, just food for thought....it can be hard at times working some things out....
 
hurleyjd said:
TCRanch said:
alisonb said:
TCRanch are you a 'gents' :p





Greggy - have seen you mentioning feeding fine/powdered feed a couple of times. Cattle as you know are ruminants, a healthy efficient rumen is the ultimate. ;-)

http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/publications/understanding-the-ruminant-animal-digestive-system

Well, I didn't think so but was referred to as Sir on a previous post & Sky responded by saying I was a good looking transgender. I've been called worse! :lol:

Very interesting article, thanks for posting. I've had my share of hardware but have never actually seen the reticulum. All my cows/bulls now have magnets BTW.
Net wrap, baler twine and plastic grocery bags will be eaten by cows and this will make the get thinner and thinner and then die.

Cattle sure are the heros of the junk hoovers.....

Do not leave anything out, or, around, do not be sloppy when doing fencing with offcuts etc, in fact, it is a bit of a pest....

Fine if killing young, but hell, they find anything a possible chow down if they can get to it or pull it too the mouth....much worse than sheep, who will pick the feed out and never eat junk....
 
TexasBred said:
The negative aspects of feeding fine ground "corn" or other feed is grossly over stated. Most beef cattle seldom get "large" amount of feed and with most commercial feeds a very small percentage of that is actually "corn" and whether it is whole, chopped or ground is of little consequence. Dairy cattle consume from 28 to 32 lbs. of "grain" per day everyday with no real adverse affects as they also consume another 30-35 pounds of roughage. There will always be the occasional case of acidosis but will be a very small % of the entire herd. At the low rate many beef cattle are feed commercial feed the cattle hardly know they've been fed anyway.

TB -"Grossly over stated" :eek:

You don't make mention that most dairies and feedlots make use of additives such as prebiotics, probiotics, buffers, ionophores, yeast etc. to reduce the risk of acidosis while the cattle are consuming these large quantities of 'grain'. Another thing...cattle don't only get acidosis from 'grain overload', grazing high quality pasture can also affect the pH of the rumen.
Acute acidosis is easily detected but what of those that have sub acute acidosis and show no clinical signs and just become 'poor doers'...money down the drain. Let's all just ignore Acidosis! :)
 
ValleyView said:
The bull and cows are all on a commodity ration with a fair dose of DDG's, rolled corn (I think) and 1/4 pellets among other feedstuffs. He held condition quite well on 20% range cubes so if it is his teeth I'd say I'm ahead of the curve, I hope...

He spent his first 16 months in an operation that is much different than mine and the wet winter and adjustment to my supplemental feeding program potentially compounded by new teeth may have created a perfect storm.

It may be interesting to monitor his cud chewing if you have the time. He should chew on a cud approx 50(and more) times, if it is under that it's usually got something to do with the digestive system not working properly...time to supplement alkaline ;-)
 
alisonb said:
TexasBred said:
The negative aspects of feeding fine ground "corn" or other feed is grossly over stated. Most beef cattle seldom get "large" amount of feed and with most commercial feeds a very small percentage of that is actually "corn" and whether it is whole, chopped or ground is of little consequence. Dairy cattle consume from 28 to 32 lbs. of "grain" per day everyday with no real adverse affects as they also consume another 30-35 pounds of roughage. There will always be the occasional case of acidosis but will be a very small % of the entire herd. At the low rate many beef cattle are feed commercial feed the cattle hardly know they've been fed anyway.

TB -"Grossly over stated" :eek:

You don't make mention that most dairies and feedlots make use of additives such as prebiotics, probiotics, buffers, ionophores, yeast etc. to reduce the risk of acidosis while the cattle are consuming these large quantities of 'grain'. Another thing...cattle don't only get acidosis from 'grain overload', grazing high quality pasture can also affect the pH of the rumen.
Acute acidosis is easily detected but what of those that have sub acute acidosis and show no clinical signs and just become 'poor doers'...money down the drain. Let's all just ignore Acidosis! :)
Actually a huge majority of dairies use NONE of those additives. Most will use sodium bicarbonate to maintain effective rumen ph, They are too expensive. As I said, along with the grain they will balance the ration around long stem roughage high in fiber. And for most beef cattle acidosis (clinical or sub clinical) is non existant. (observe your cattle ruminating)
 

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