Bull & Breeding Costs ?

[Cgirling1983]

cy1983> You would have saved yourself a lot of time if you had just began at the last sentence and stopped at that point. LVR

True, I was channeling my inner university student hahaha

 

[Cgirling1983]

It doesn't have to be so complicated. There's no reason for it to take until my kids take over (what a waste to build it for them and they decide to go another way). I can skip to the end, buy the cows/heifers and done. I've spent a fair amount of time at the stockyards watching cattle sell and I've yet to come across a group of calves or a herd of cattle that's so superior in any measurable way to what I can easily buy that it would be worth dedicating a llifetime to creating. What's the end goals for performance of a legacy herd like that?

Simply put what's the conception rate, weaning rate, feed efficiency, average weaning weight, average longevity etc. of the greatest herd ever assembled so I can measure where I am vs where I can reasonably expect to go?

Well, who is topping the sale barn near you and do they sell replacements? That's as good a place as any to start i suppose. Find the cattle you like nearest you and see if your environment can replicate their results.
I am not saying you need to spend a lifetime making the perfect herd, but if you're spending time and money and energy to create a herd that makes you money, it does take years of selecting for traits. You can't just buy someone's cows and have the worlds best herd. That's the joy of genetics, if there was a perfect cow or bull that was able to identically replace itself in every calf, we wouldn't ever need to have these discussions. Heritability of traits have both positive and negative outcomes and someone else said that crossbreeding can help with that and they're right. What I'm saying when I talk about handing it to the kids is by the time they're old enough, you'll have spent 20 years selecting for positive traits and should have a cow herd that is pretty solid and lacking in genetic issues. The worlds best bull can not do this in one year or even five years, that's my argument, it's a life long journey. Starting with awesome cattle makes things easier and using good bulls helps but it takes years of trait selection and selecting the right animals for the environment... not every animal performs the same on the same grass. Program evaluation of inputs to outputs to outcomes and then ensuring that your goals are being met? That's a lengthy process and requires constant re-evaluation

 

[Rydero]

Well, who is topping the sale barn near you and do they sell replacements? That's as good a place as any to start i suppose. Find the cattle you like nearest you and see if your environment can replicate their results.
I am not saying you need to spend a lifetime making the perfect herd, but if you're spending time and money and energy to create a herd that makes you money, it does take years of selecting for traits. You can't just buy someone's cows and have the worlds best herd. That's the joy of genetics, if there was a perfect cow or bull that was able to identically replace itself in every calf, we wouldn't ever need to have these discussions. Heritability of traits have both positive and negative outcomes and someone else said that crossbreeding can help with that and they're right. What I'm saying when I talk about handing it to the kids is by the time they're old enough, you'll have spent 20 years selecting for positive traits and should have a cow herd that is pretty solid and lacking in genetic issues. The worlds best bull can not do this in one year or even five years, that's my argument, it's a life long journey. Starting with awesome cattle makes things easier and using good bulls helps but it takes years of trait selection and selecting the right animals for the environment... not every animal performs the same on the same grass. Program evaluation of inputs to outputs to outcomes and then ensuring that your goals are being met? That's a lengthy process and requires constant re-evaluation

Again. It doesn't have to be so complicated or take years if the objective is being profitable. How far down this road of trait selection etc are you and what how are your cattle performing as far as weaning weights, %open, %of calf crop weaned, whatever measurable way you use to gauge success?

Often quality of replacements generated is used to justify practices that cost an operation money yet the outcome appears to be subjective. If the practice of refining the genetics of a herd is so valuable why is it so hard to put a value on?

Often a producer starts out with a herd of old mongrels cheap cows not knowing much about feeding or caring for them. As they improve their herd they also become better cattle farmers and build their knowledge base, improve grazing, feeding and vaccination protocols etc. As they expand the herd gets younger. The farmer becomes better as the herd gets better.

I'm not suggesting genetics don't have a role to play in improving a cattle herd, I'm suggesting there's a lot of good genetics out there that can be readily bought and as you move towards your generic improvement there's diminishing returns. It would probably be more profitable to concentrate on things that are limiting production or profit - in most cases it's not genetics.

 

[Brute 23]

Again. It doesn't have to be so complicated or take years if the objective is being profitable. How far down this road of trait selection etc are you and what how are your cattle performing as far as weaning weights, %open, %of calf crop weaned, whatever measurable way you use to gauge success?

Often quality of replacements generated is used to justify practices that cost an operation money yet the outcome appears to be subjective. If the practice of refining the genetics of a herd is so valuable why is it so hard to put a value on?

Often a producer starts out with a herd of old mongrels cheap cows not knowing much about feeding or caring for them. As they improve their herd they also become better cattle farmers and build their knowledge base, improve grazing, feeding and vaccination protocols etc. As they expand the herd gets younger. The farmer becomes better as the herd gets better.

I'm not suggesting genetics don't have a role to play in improving a cattle herd, I'm suggesting there's a lot of good genetics out there that can be readily bought and as you move towards your generic improvement there's diminishing returns. It would probably be more profitable to concentrate on things that are limiting production or profit - in most cases it's not genetics.

Ya but since none of us are getting rich one of the few benefits we get is looking out on a nice herd and knowing we built that.

 

[Rydero]

Ya but since none of us are getting rich one of the few benefits we get is looking out on a nice herd and knowing we built that.

Hey if that's what floats your boat and you know what it's costing you enjoy it, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Speak for yourself, lol. I don't know for sure if I'm getting rich or not yet but I've increased my net worth a lot using cattle to fuel investment in real estate. Heard a guy who used to be the richest man in the world owns a lot of farmland too...

 

[Brute 23]

Hey if that's what floats your boat and you know what it's costing you enjoy it, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Speak for yourself, lol. I don't know for sure if I'm getting rich or not yet but I've increased my net worth a lot using cattle to fuel investment in real estate. Heard a guy who used to be the richest man in the world owns a lot of farmland too...

I'm in the same boat. Stay tuned... These are the Days of our Lives LoL

 

[Josher]

It's a valid point, if they calve a little earlier it's an advantage. You don't have to AI to do this though. If it's worth it you can give the shot before bull turnout. I've had to a couple times when bulls and cows mixed early. Both times it did seem to tighten the calving window. We're thinking of doing it this year to get a group of heifers mostly out of the way before the main herd starts.

You just need to have a lot of bull power to use this. That's where with AI it doesn't matter if 20 or 30 come in heat same day.

 

[FungusProudKY31]

I find it interesting when beef farmers use conception rates as a reason for not using AI. I agree that some AI users have poor conception rates but bull breeders may also have similar problems. Several post mention culling open cows after preg checking. AI breeders should be able to determine if cows are cycling during the breeding season and which cows are multiple breeders. cows not cycling, cycling too often, or not conceiving can often get the problem fixed and get bred. if they do not fit into your calving window they can get sold for bred cows which are worth more $ around here. had a neighbor a few years ago that lost one calf crop because his bull didn't settle any cows even though he tested good before turning out. AI breeders that have good management skills and the time/ability to monitor cows during the breeding season could very well have better conception rates than bull breeders.

The literature and research do not support your opinion.

 

[Dsth]

The literature and research do not support your opinion.

my conception rate does support it though

 

[gcreekrch]

Hey if that's what floats your boat and you know what it's costing you enjoy it, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Speak for yourself, lol. I don't know for sure if I'm getting rich or not yet but I've increased my net worth a lot using cattle to fuel investment in real estate. Heard a guy who used to be the richest man in the world owns a lot of farmland too...

Ownership has lots to do with quality! I have bought a lot of ugly cows in the last 40 years.

 

[Rydero]

You just need to have a lot of bull power to use this. That's where with AI it doesn't matter if 20 or 30 come in heat same day.

I've done it twice and didn't need more than a pretty standard 1 bull per 30 cows. First time the whole herd calved within 30 days, this last time 80% of the heifers calved in 14 days. If 80% were to cycle in 5 days that's 5/day per bull, not really a stretch for a good group of bulls to handle collectively. One shot won't synchronize and if you're talking more than one time and money come back into play. Ever calved 30/day in a snow storm? I have in a group with a good sized barn and you may wish for limit to the number of calves...

 

[Rydero]

Ownership has lots to do with quality! I have bought a lot of ugly cows in the last 40 years.

This is true, lol.

Also I read an article not long ago I'll try to find it. The point was - it's been studied and all you have to to increase the value of something in someone's eyes is to tell them it's theirs. They don't have to buy it, earn it, have it any length of time but it's instantly worth more. I wonder how this comes into play with people's replacement heifers?

Found it.

Rational Ranching: Make the Time to “Think Slow”

Is that cull cow a good return in enterprise accounting?

www.beefmagazine.com