Bull Breed comparison / How to evaluate

[Warren Allison]

Geeze Warren... I wouldn't even give my mother-in-law that kind of advice.

We all like to believe everyone is trustworthy and would honor a handshake... and we learn from that over time. But one person's perfect bull is going to be another person's goat. Maybe you can afford to buy ten bulls at a time, sight unseen, to put on Corrientes... and be satisfied with the results... but anyone with cows they have money invested in and a goal to get the kind of calves they want, better take a look at a bull before buying.

@SmalltimeOkie

I dunno, just going by what @TCRanch has said before. And, there have been a couple on here that have bought bulls from Giz without driving to Florida. I think it is very sound advice to give someone who doesn't really know a lot about them...that says they don't really know for sure what kind of bull they want or need...that is asking for advice and reccomendations.....to refer them to experienced cattlepeople that have sterling reputations. These past 3-4 years I have bought herds for 5 or 6 different people that I did not know. And probably 20 or so bulls. And I have no website or anything...don't advertise or solicit for that business. They have all contacted me because they were referred by someone that they trusted. And the people referred them to me, because they trust me. And I do the absolute best I can for them...probably put more time and effort into it than if I am buying for myself. And this is not all of that uncommon in this business. Like any business, you can have 1000 satisfied customers, and no one is going to go on social media, etc, and tell about it. They might if asked, but you can have just ONE dissatisfied customer, and they gonna blast you to as many people as they can. Anyone who has been in business for a while....any business....is because they treat their customers right, and do them a good job.

Oh, and the bulls we use on those Corrs? There are NO registered Brangus brood stock producers anywhere that use better bulls than we do. Clay's boss has a contract with a buyer for a very high-end, prestigious steak house chain, to provide CAB Prime+ beef. He has ( or had...these are the 400 I am buying) 400 Corr cows, and buys about 600 more calves from some producers in Fla and LA that he provides them the bulls to breed to their Fla Scrub/Cracker and Pineywoods cows. ( like he will do us next year). This man has bred the best Brangus cattle anywhere since the early 70's. Most of the world-famous Salacoa Valley Brangus stock originally came for him. Out of these 1000, he will put about 950 or so into his program. He doesn't use any for that operation that he is not 99.99% sure will grade. This year, he had 4 out of the 968 that left the feedlot for the plant that didn't grade CAB Prime+, and that was more than he usually has not make it each year. This is partly a result of the feed program he uses, and a lot the result of the bulls he uses.

Here are the prices of the steaks at this place. They advertise only Certified Angus Beef. Customers all over the US are waiting in line for hours, to buy these steaks that, that some of them come from 900-something calves of Criolo dams:

PORTERHOUSE
40 oz USDA Prime cut combining the rich flavor of a strip & the tenderness of a filet $119

BONE-IN FILET
USDA Prime bone-in 16 oz cut with ultimate tenderness $89

TOMAHAWK RIBEYE `
USDA Prime, bone-in 40 oz ribeye, well-marbled for peak flavor $154

 

[Travlr]

I dunno, just going by what @TCRanch has said before. And, there have been a couple on here that have bought bulls from Giz without driving to Florida. I think it is very sound advice to give someone who doesn't really know a lot about them...that says they don't really know for sure what kind of bull they want or need...that is asking for advice and reccomendations.....to refer them to experienced cattlepeople that have sterling reputations. These past 3-4 years I have bought herds for 5 or 6 different people that I did not know. And probably 20 or so bulls. And I have no website or anything...don't advertise or solicit for that business. They have all contacted me because they were referred by someone that they trusted. And the people referred them to me, because they trust me. And I do the absolute best I can for them...probably put more time and effort into it than if I am buying for myself. And this is not all of that uncommon in this business. Like any business, you can have 1000 satisfied customers, and no one is going to go on social media, etc, and tell about it. They might if asked, but you can have just ONE dissatisfied customer, and they gonna blast you to as many people as they can. Anyone who has been in business for a while....any business....is because they treat their customers right, and do them a good job.

Oh, and the bulls we use on those Corrs? There are NO registered Brangus brood stock producers anywhere that use better bulls than we do. Clay's boss has a contract with a buyer for a very high-end, prestigious steak house chain, to provide CAB Prime+ beef. He has ( or had...these are the 400 I am buying) 400 Corr cows, and buys about 600 more calves from some producers in Fla and LA that he provides them the bulls to breed to their Fla Scrub/Cracker and Pineywoods cows. ( like he will do us next year). This man has bred the best Brangus cattle anywhere since the early 70's. Most of the world-famous Salacoa Valley Brangus stock originally came for him. Out of these 1000, he will put about 950 or so into his program. He doesn't use any for that operation that he is not 99.99% sure will grade. This year, he had 4 out of the 968 that left the feedlot for the plant that didn't grade CAB Prime+, and that was more than he usually has not make it each year. This is partly a result of the feed program he uses, and a lot the result of the bulls he uses.

Here are the prices of the steaks at this place. They advertise only Certified Angus Beef. Customers all over the US are waiting in line for hours, to buy these steaks that, that some of them come from 900-something calves of Criolo dams:

PORTERHOUSE
40 oz USDA Prime cut combining the rich flavor of a strip & the tenderness of a filet $119

BONE-IN FILET
USDA Prime bone-in 16 oz cut with ultimate tenderness $89

TOMAHAWK RIBEYE `
USDA Prime, bone-in 40 oz ribeye, well-marbled for peak flavor $154

Ya know... I used to be a cattle trader too...

And there are three kinds. Some will skin anyone they can and never look back. Always looking for a fresh face to snuggle up to. Another will be quiet and help people out without much fuss, when asked to find any certain kind of animals or deal, just doing their job. And the third kind is the one that sells themself and their advice, cultivating friends and followers like a Kardashian on the internet.

Anybody that buys a bull without looking at it has too much money or doesn't know how to chose a bull to compliment his cows. The breeder might send a great bull that throws average calves because he's never seen the cows his bull will be breeding. Some people that own a herd of cows tend to choose a rainbow, but others have a kind they prefer. If I'm buying a bull for someone I'll be looking at his cows before I go looking for a bull, and the buyer will get a bull that works with what he has. There are some great animals posted on these threads and I'm sure people that are justifiably proud of them... and they probably appreciate your promoting them. But I'd never advise someone to buy without looking. The difference may only be marginal... but it's still a difference.

I don't believe in arranged marriages either...

 

[SmalltimeOkie]

@SmalltimeOkie, like @Travlr and others have said, there are several breeds that you can get a homo for black and polled bull. With the variety of breeds, and sizes of cattle you have, IMO, your best bet this time, would be Angus. Bigger bulls, like Simm or ChiAngus, could pose a problem with a smaller cow, or heifer, etc. IF I were buying a registered Angus today, I would check with @gizmom first. I wouldn't even drive down there to see it first, I'd just tell them to send me the one they thought would be best for me, and I could look at it after it got here! Now, @TCRanch raises reg Angus, and she has a breeder she buys all her bulls from, sight un seen. Just calls him and tells him what she wants, and he sends it to her. She lives a lot closer to you, so I assume that breeder may be closer to you than Florida.

Would you stick with the Angus just because they generally throw easier calves when crossbred and/or because the bulls themselves are smaller and less likely to hurt the smaller cows during breeding?

 

[SmalltimeOkie]

Ya know... I used to be a cattle trader too...

And there are three kinds. Some will skin anyone they can and never look back. Always looking for a fresh face to snuggle up to. Another will be quiet and help people out without much fuss, when asked to find any certain kind of animals or deal, just doing their job. And the third kind is the one that sells themself and their advice, cultivating friends and followers like a Kardashian on the internet.

Anybody that buys a bull without looking at it has too much money or doesn't know how to chose a bull to compliment his cows. The breeder might send a great bull that throws average calves because he's never seen the cows his bull will be breeding. Some people that own a herd of cows tend to choose a rainbow, but others have a kind they prefer. If I'm buying a bull for someone I'll be looking at his cows before I go looking for a bull, and the buyer will get a bull that works with what he has. There are some great animals posted on these threads and I'm sure people that are justifiably proud of them... and they probably appreciate your promoting them. But I'd never advise someone to buy without looking. The difference may only be marginal... but it's still a difference.

I don't believe in arranged marriages either...

We're definitely not made of money. That's the main reason I'm asking all these questions and trying to soak up all the knowledge. Right now our herd is very mixed and assorted (rainbow), but we're working on getting it more uniform as we learn what we like/don't like.

I did find a local registered Brangus breeder who has some bulls that look the part, and their numbers are impressive. When looking up registered Brangus, how can I tell if they're homo black and homo polled?

 

[Warren Allison]

Would you stick with the Angus just because they generally throw easier calves when crossbred and/or because the bulls themselves are smaller and less likely to hurt the smaller cows during breeding?

I don't know how small your smallest is. It may be able to handle a 110 lb black Simm or CHi-Angus calf with ease. So, without knowing, Angus would be the one I'd feel the safest recommending. Also, there are a lot more of them than all the others combined, so bigger chance of having a selection to choose from close to you.

 

[Warren Allison]

I don't know how small your smallest is. It may be able to handle a 110 lb black Simm or CHi-Angus calf with ease. So, without knowing, Angus would be the one I'd feel the safest recommending. Also, there are a lot more of them than all the others combined, so bigger chance of having a selection to choose from close to you.

 

[Warren Allison]

We're definitely not made of money. That's the main reason I'm asking all these questions and trying to soak up all the knowledge. Right now our herd is very mixed and assorted (rainbow), but we're working on getting it more uniform as we learn what we like/don't like.

I did find a local registered Brangus breeder who has some bulls that look the part, and their numbers are impressive. When looking up registered Brangus, how can I tell if they're homo black and homo polled?

Is this is a seed stock producer with a known reputation, that only raises registered Brangus? Do they have a website? A FB page? Do they have production sales? Or send cattle to registered sales? Do they participate in Association shows and sales? I would start by asking them if a bull you were interested in is homo for black and polled. To be honest, I don't know if you gave me 6 months to look, if I could find one that wasn't. If this place is local to you, so that you can go look at his bulls, then Brangus instead of Angus will be ok for you.

 

[Travlr]

We're definitely not made of money. That's the main reason I'm asking all these questions and trying to soak up all the knowledge. Right now our herd is very mixed and assorted (rainbow), but we're working on getting it more uniform as we learn what we like/don't like.

I did find a local registered Brangus breeder who has some bulls that look the part, and their numbers are impressive. When looking up registered Brangus, how can I tell if they're homo black and homo polled?

In central OK I'd think a Brangus bull would be a good choice. I've never worked with Brangus but I've admired them. As far as I know they are all homozygous black and polled, but you should do some checking just to be sure. A bull like that will help with consistency and that's enormously important at a sale barn. A group of thirty calves that look alike will bring more than a group of excellent calves that don't look alike. In fact odd colored calves will sometimes be sorted and the less desirable colors will sell for less. If you have experienced cows with no history of birthing problems you shouldn't need to worry as much about a calving ease/low birth weight bull. Establish your own priorities and buy accordingly though. That Brangus bull you posted a pic of was a nice example. As said, another picture of him might have made his back look like he had a better topline.

Chasing consistency will serve you well. You're asking the right questions and voicing the right concerns.

 

[Ky hills]

There's quite a few Angus outfits in Oklahoma, as well as Simmental and anything thing else should be pretty easy to find a breeder close by.
My advice would be go and look around at some bulls and meet the breeders. Talk with them about what you are looking for.

Ya know... I used to be a cattle trader too...

And there are three kinds. Some will skin anyone they can and never look back. Always looking for a fresh face to snuggle up to. Another will be quiet and help people out without much fuss, when asked to find any certain kind of animals or deal, just doing their job. And the third kind is the one that sells themself and their advice, cultivating friends and followers like a Kardashian on the internet.

Anybody that buys a bull without looking at it has too much money or doesn't know how to chose a bull to compliment his cows. The breeder might send a great bull that throws average calves because he's never seen the cows his bull will be breeding. Some people that own a herd of cows tend to choose a rainbow, but others have a kind they prefer. If I'm buying a bull for someone I'll be looking at his cows before I go looking for a bull, and the buyer will get a bull that works with what he has. There are some great animals posted on these threads and I'm sure people that are justifiably proud of them... and they probably appreciate your promoting them. But I'd never advise someone to buy without looking. The difference may only be marginal... but it's still a difference.

I don't believe in arranged marriages either...

I'm not much in sight unseen purchases either especially when it comes to a bull.
That said, I certainly did entertain the thought of contacting Gizmo Angus a few weeks ago. I talked with somebody that bought one from them like that and that conversation certainly satisfied one of my major concerns that I would have about buying something from them sight unseen.
After thinking about it and seriously considering it, I decided to stay local with folks that I knew, because like you say there are a lot of factors at play, mainly this time of year picking is getting slim as most bulls are picked over and those last ones are generally last for a reason regardless of who's they are.
I'm not being critical of anyone on here, but I know of a couple different regionally known and respected registered herds both within a an hour or so of here in different directions that you could not give me an animal from either of them.
I've been got by one of them( a bull consigned to a regional bull sale had hardware when bought) they refused to do anything about it and the other may have well bred modern genetics cattle, but they are as wild as deers. I've been to a couple of the last deal mentioned sales and can not believe that people buy those wild of cattle.
I like to see an outfit and see how they handle and manage their cattle.

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison I agree with that assessment if you are in doubt about the calving aspect I'd definitely go with Angus. They are plentiful and reliable calving ease even with some of the bigger animals.

 

[Wall Murray Greys]

Murray Greys sound like a great breed, but if I put a Murray Grey bull on my random assortment of cows, will the offspring be marketable at all? It does look like Crispin Murray Greys have some great bulls available with local/grassfed genetics.

I assume if I went that route, I'd need to really work to find buyers for the meat instead of taking the calves to a sale? This is the only reason I was really leaning towards a nice homo black/homo polled black bull.

It seems everyone around here at sale barns call absolutely everything that's black an angus, and as long as it has decent size and is mostly black, it will sell well.... at least right now in the current market. The only cattle I've consistently seen sell better than black/polled are purebred Brahmans. Brahmans around here sell very well.

I may have mis read something.

The way I read you post was you were going to raise the meat yourself for friends and family and possibly sell to others. Color will not matter at that point. Plus Murray Grey meat is great. You get really nice tenderness and marbling. I get it on grass and grain fed both.

If you want to raise cattle to sell at a sale barn, I can't help you much there. I do not sell to sale barns very often. I will say that when I do, I still do pretty good. Good cattle are good cattle. However, I know that they aren't black. Also, I have found buyers that have seen the meat and the value and I now mostly sale to them. Feed efficiency, heat tolerance, docility and a whole lot of other factors went into my decision to go with MGs.

I would suggest you raise the kind of cattle you feel good about. I wouldn't chase what someone else thinks is good. Goal post moves to much then, in my opinion. Harder to predict and learn at the same time.

In my experience, the mixed cattle will produce the same type of calves on a MG as they would on an Angus. Big difference is the dilution gene. I'll try to post a few pictures.

Good luck

 

[Wall Murray Greys]

about half my cattle

Any experience with Square Meaters?

qualify for Square Meater

 

[TCRanch]

Anybody that buys a bull without looking at it has too much money or doesn't know how to chose a bull to compliment his cows.

Ouch!

How 'bout, I trust my breeder implicitly? He knows his bulls and he knows my herd. He's the quintessential good ol' boy and his goal is not just to compliment my cows but improve my herd.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

We're definitely not made of money. That's the main reason I'm asking all these questions and trying to soak up all the knowledge. Right now our herd is very mixed and assorted (rainbow), but we're working on getting it more uniform as we learn what we like/don't like.

I did find a local registered Brangus breeder who has some bulls that look the part, and their numbers are impressive. When looking up registered Brangus, how can I tell if they're homo black and homo polled?

More often than not you can't determine 100% that they are homo for a dominant trait. You can be 'reasonably certain', but rarely absolute, and certainty falls on a sliding scale. So more certain about some vs others.

 

[Lucky]

@SmalltimeOkie Have you looked at Cattlerange.com to see what's available close to you? I'm not saying to buy off the site but you can look at lots of cattle and bulls from your couch on there. We bought a really nice set of Brangus heifers advertized on the site last fall.

 

[SmalltimeOkie]

I did look on cattlerange a little while back, but it doesn't seem like there's much posted on there.

If I was confident I wouldn't have to take any animals to the sale barn, I think the Murray Grey would be a great option. I might even be able to use/sell as much meat as we produce, but I just don't know yet.

This was the Brangus I found locally. BW: 82 WW: 726 YW: 1154 plus he's got top %30 EPDs for WW and YW. Breeder says all of that was on local grass/hay too which seems pretty impressive. Registration number is R10485281

I haven't gone to see him yet to check out his feet, stride, or temperament.

 

[Travlr]

Ouch!

How 'bout, I trust my breeder implicitly? He knows his bulls and he knows my herd. He's the quintessential good ol' boy and his goal is not just to compliment my cows but improve my herd.

Okay. maybe I should have qualified that by saying if you work with people over years you can establish a working relationship where both of you understand the common goals. But that doesn't happen without some initial adjustments and two people with mutual interests.

I stand corrected.

 

[J+ Cattle]

I did look on cattlerange a little while back, but it doesn't seem like there's much posted on there.

If I was confident I wouldn't have to take any animals to the sale barn, I think the Murray Grey would be a great option. I might even be able to use/sell as much meat as we produce, but I just don't know yet.

This was the Brangus I found locally. BW: 82 WW: 726 YW: 1154 plus he's got top %30 EPDs for WW and YW. Breeder says all of that was on local grass/hay too which seems pretty impressive. Registration number is R10485281

I haven't gone to see him yet to check out his feet, stride, or temperament.

View attachment 46702

If your primary goal is to raise freezer beef, then I would not recommend getting a bull with Brahman influence as it could affect the tenderness of the meat. I refer to this statement coming from this article.

tag based on what is being viewed. We filter the output of wp_title() a bit - see agriflex_filter_wp_title() in functions.php. --> <title> Meat Tenderness - Meat Science

meat.tamu.edu

Additional factors affecting meat tenderness
1. Breed type
Bos indicus (Brahman, Sahiwal, etc.) breeds tend to be tougher than Bos taurus breeds (Angus, Hereford, etc.). Bos indicus has greater amounts of calpastatin, a protein that interferes with postmortem degradation of muscle.

Also, if you do have to sell any at the local livestock market the extra leather and ear will make it bring less money than one that has no brahman influence, at least it is true in my area, and if you're in central OK then the biggest market for you will be OKC and it will be true there as well. My recommendation would be to stick with a homo black, homo polled Angus, Simmental or Sim-Angus.

 

[Warren Allison]

Right now, the cows are just an assortment of low input cost cows. I don't know that anything out there is purebred. Corrientes, longhorns, piedmontese x, jersey x, angus x, and one that looks like a bucking cow. I'll probably eventually make the switch so I have more consistency, but I'm really curious to see how the different crosses calve, finish, taste, and marble. Going to do a lot of experimenting.

And on the thread when you first joined CT, you said: "I have an angus x steer, 12 dexter/mini-jersey/ x, a either belgian Blue/Jersey or Piedmontese/jersey, a little aberdeen bull, the little angus x heifer with the leg wound, some other assorted, cheap heifers, and a brahman bull. Oh.. and a little highpark x"

What all kind of cows do you have, @SmalltimeOkie? With that many mini cows, dunno if a Simm or Brangus would be your best option. How old is the Brahma bull and the Aberdeen bull you listed above?

 

[Warren Allison]

Anybody that buys a bull without looking at it has too much money or doesn't know how to chose a bull to compliment his cows. The breeder might send a great bull that throws average calves because he's never seen the cows his bull will be breeding. Some people that own a herd of cows tend to choose a rainbow, but others have a kind they prefer. If I'm buying a bull for someone I'll be looking at his cows before I go looking for a bull, and the buyer will get a bull that works with what he has. There are some great animals posted on these threads and I'm sure people that are justifiably proud of them... and they probably appreciate your promoting them. But I'd never advise someone to buy without looking. The difference may only be marginal... but it's still a difference.

Most anyone that has asked me to find them a bull(s) knows exactly what kind he needs to "compliment his cows", and that is what he asks us to find. Same with the ones who have gotten me to buy them a herd of cows...they know exactly what they want, how much they want to pay, etc. When these cattlemen ask someone like me to help find cows, they view us as an extra pair of their eyes. and they don't Google , or look in the Yellow Pages, for a "cattle buyer" or " cattle consultant", either. They use folks that they know, or that people that they trust knows. Occasionally you get called by someone who knows little to nothing about cattle, like the young guy last winter that was converting his grandpa's row crop land to cow-calf. So you spend a lot of time talking to him to try to figure out what he wants, and to see if it is even feasible what he is thinking. You go see his facilities, offer advice on steps or actions to take, etc.

When I was looking for those Red Char cows a couple of months ago I did NOT drive to Arkansas or Missouri , to look at cows I found that may have fit the bill my client was looking for. I called a colleague closer to them, and got him to put eyes on them. Same with the 150 Brahmas my client wanted a couple of years back. I got 80 out of south Florida that I never saw myself til they got here ( well,. saw pics and videos, etc) . I got a hold of someone I knew down there, and he put eyes on a lot of Brahmas until we picked those 80 out. It is not that uncommon for people to use resources like that to find quality cattle. It would be a 24/3675 task, and cost a fortune in fuel, for someone to travel the nation to find cattle. Networking with cattle men( women), makes it possible for you to get the best quality you can.