Bull and his heifers

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JHH

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Here is a bull I kept out of the goggle eyed bull. I got the goggle eyed bull from Hereford lover several yrs ago.

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here is two heifers. the bull was at neighbors place with a couple old herf cows ( 21 and 22 yrs old) and the rest are black.

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I need to get better pics but he passes the google eyes on and looks like the heifers are going to b keepers for them.
 
Regardless of his other attributes, his hind legs make him a cull. Very straight hocked forcing the pasterns to take all the punishment (and it shows), he also has a very undesirable heavy round bone.
 
JHH":2pynp38o said:
That bad huh. Besides no muscle what do you see.

IMO - His topline is. . . acceptable. His hind legs are not acceptable. His canon bone has not developed sufficiently to support his weight during an extensive breeding season - that is one reason why his hocks are stressed, and he is cow-hocked, and his pasterns are really aching! This trait really puts a stress factor on him in mounting cows. He could soon be developing a stifle problem, and then you are "out of bull power!" I also suggest that you not concern yourself with using 'goggle eyes' ONLY as a "single trait selection trait" when pursuing a replacement bull! It is a fine trait to posses, but there are other factors which should supercede goggle eyes, specifically FUNCTIONAL traits (legs, feet, pasterns, shoulder, muscularity). Also by focusing on a bull with high 'Accuracy' numbers in the above characteristics you should be able to improve the functionality of any replacement heifers you retain from your new bull! I feel that this bull that you have shown us has done all the 'good' that he can do in your herd.

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":2fjixj5j said:
JHH":2fjixj5j said:
That bad huh. Besides no muscle what do you see.

IMO - His topline is. . . acceptable. His hind legs are not acceptable. His canon bone has not developed sufficiently to support his weight during an extensive breeding season - that is one reason why his hocks are stressed, and he is cow-hocked, and his pasterns are really aching! This trait really puts a stress factor on him in mounting cows. He could soon be developing a stifle problem, and then you are "out of bull power!" I also suggest that you not concern yourself with using 'goggle eyes' ONLY as a "single trait selection trait" when pursuing a replacement bull! It is a fine trait to posses, but there are other factors which should supercede goggle eyes, specifically FUNCTIONAL traits (legs, feet, pasterns, shoulder, muscularity). Also by focusing on a bull with high 'Accuracy' numbers in the above characteristics you should be able to improve the functionality of any replacement heifers you retain from your new bull! I feel that this bull that you have shown us has done all the 'good' that he can do in your herd.

DOC HARRIS

Doc he was used to settle cows and not in a registered herd. I sold him to them and then they ask if I wanted him back just a few weeks ago. I bought him back at pound price and will settle 5 heifers with him and then he leaves. Nothing will be kept at my place and I dont use single trait selection. But on the other hand I didnt notice his feet being bad. I will look tommorrow and see. I have had LOTS of angus guys see him and they all ooh and ahh over him like he is something really special. We all know he is not. Have had several want to buy him. I will pound him out.
 
JHH":3kjc1ptv said:
How can you tell? Cant see his pasterns.

Inasmuch as I can't see his pasterns, I decline to judge him on a "Single Trait Selection" factor of "Pasterns ONLY!!" The primary indication that his pasterns are possibly more functionally correct than your old bull is evidenced by the fact that your "AI" bull is NOT cow hocked or sickle hocked. Also your old bull stands slightly "rump-humped" - indicating that his hind foot placement is "set under" his body, he is slightly 'post-legged' - necessitated by the fact that his feet hurt, his pasterns are swollen, and his feet "flare" outward slightly, and his rear toes are spread apart. If he were human he would need arch supports, or a cane in a few weeks! :cry:

By analyzing your AI bull from a "Multiple Trait Selection" protocol perspective, the AI bull indicates more desirable characteristics from the following points of view:
1- More level loin and top line overall.
2- More balanced body length and spring of rib -- indicates greater internal capacity, which carrys over to replacement heifers and Terminal Feedlot feed efficiency factors.
3- Considerable improvement in hind quarters which are thicker and carries down deeper to the gaskins.
4- He demonstrates greater masculinity, even for his younger age, which is an indication of Fertility in his daughters and THEIR sons.
5- Rear leg stance is wider
6- He is NOT cow-hocked, which your old bull does manifest that trait.
7- He is more balanced from front to rear.
8- He is deeper in the rear flank, presenting a more level underline.
Because we dont have a "square-on" rear view picture, it is difficult to ascertain several other characteristics, such as overall equal width and thickness from front to rear.

But . . . I have NO idea about his EPD's. His Molecular Value Predictions, which is is really not cogent in your particular requirements, is not of justifiable financial value at this point.

In My Humble Opinion, you would have been dollars and time ahead to have bred your five heifers to this AI bull, and shipped the old boy without having to contend with his progeny for however long you plan to keep them. The AI bull is a better bull!

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":4tk73o6g said:
JHH":4tk73o6g said:
How can you tell? Cant see his pasterns.

Inasmuch as I can't see his pasterns, I decline to judge him on a "Single Trait Selection" factor of "Pasterns ONLY!!" The primary indication that his pasterns are possibly more functionally correct than your old bull is evidenced by the fact that your "AI" bull is NOT cow hocked or sickle hocked. Also your old bull stands slightly "rump-humped" - indicating that his hind foot placement is "set under" his body, he is slightly 'post-legged' - necessitated by the fact that his feet hurt, his pasterns are swollen, and his feet "flare" outward slightly, and his rear toes are spread apart. If he were human he would need arch supports, or a cane in a few weeks! :cry:

By analyzing your AI bull from a "Multiple Trait Selection" protocol perspective, the AI bull indicates more desirable characteristics from the following points of view:
1- More level loin and top line overall.
2- More balanced body length and spring of rib -- indicates greater internal capacity, which carrys over to replacement heifers and Terminal Feedlot feed efficiency factors.
3- Considerable improvement in hind quarters which are thicker and carries down deeper to the gaskins.
4- He demonstrates greater masculinity, even for his younger age, which is an indication of Fertility in his daughters and THEIR sons.
5- Rear leg stance is wider
6- He is NOT cow-hocked, which your old bull does manifest that trait.
7- He is more balanced from front to rear.
8- He is deeper in the rear flank, presenting a more level underline.
Because we dont have a "square-on" rear view picture, it is difficult to ascertain several other characteristics, such as overall equal width and thickness from front to rear.

But . . . I have NO idea about his EPD's. His Molecular Value Predictions, which is is really not cogent in your particular requirements, is not of justifiable financial value at this point.

In My Humble Opinion, you would have been dollars and time ahead to have bred your five heifers to this AI bull, and shipped the old boy without having to contend with his progeny for however long you plan to keep them. The AI bull is a better bull!

DOC HARRIS


I agree with this. As far as the five heifers I will stick with live calves from a proven breeder rather than take a chance on a un proven A-I bull. The calves wont be kept and will just go as feeders anyhow. Then will A-I my polled bunch to this guy and one of a friend of mine's bull which is out of world class 517 I think.

Thank you for the reasons and I do think I have learned something. BUT you guys have seen a couple pics and not in real life. All this does make a differance and I supose thats why there are 10,000 dollar bulls and 1500 dollar bulls :D
 
JHH":1x1dabgj said:
The problem is still with the hocks rather than the pasterns.

JHH -
You are very welcome! This 'experience in beef cattle analysis' is another example of the old maxim that ". . . never judge or select an animal by virtue of pictures ONLY!". There could be too many 'unseen' unknowns which tend to confuse the issues.

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":36mfawqt said:
JHH":36mfawqt said:
The problem is still with the hocks rather than the pasterns.

JHH -
You are very welcome! This 'experience in beef cattle analysis' is another example of the old maxim that ". . . never judge or select an animal by virtue of pictures ONLY!". There could be too many 'unseen' unknowns which tend to confuse the issues.

DOC HARRIS

My quote came from Knersie not me but I see what he and you are saying.
 

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