bull and bull EPD comparison

[mncowboy]

Here's a question in regards to bull and bull epd comparison.
If you were to compare Connealy Right Answer and Connealy Confidence Plus.
My intent is to use Right Answer because of his age and history but when you compare them side by side, they're really quite similar from their recorded B, W, and Y weights to their EPD's. Right answer has a bit more frame. They're both calving ease but C-Plus shows a bit more CED/CEM.
My thought process is Right answer has been around longer and has more reg'd offspring BUT, Confidence Plus has Preg Check of 105 with 78% reliability while Right Answer doesn't show a Preg Check score. Is this the right perspective when comparing and or should the Preg Check score get more recognition in this comparison?

Right Answer
http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... e=1AN01146

TRAIT CED BW WW YW RADG SCR DOC HPG CEM MILK MKH MW MH $EN
EPD 12.0 -0.5 63 113 0.23 1.06 23 18 9 29 521 33 0.3 -4.53
ACC .93 .97 .95 .94 .78 .94 .88 .67 .84 .90 1781 .80 .78


Confidence Plus
http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 72&lang=EN

TRAIT CED BW WW YW RADG SCR DOC HPG CEM MILK MW MH $EN
EPD 18.0 -1.8 62 115 0.29 0.10 24 19.2 17 25 23 0.1 -11.21
ACC .69 .82 .74 .68 .42 .73 .64 .37 .19 .24 .44 .26

 

[bse]

My Question would be, how do the arrive at preg check numbers? Personally I think that's a joke and marketing scheme. To arrive at numbers like that you would have to have the same person use alot of all the different semen, because your conception rate and mine may be way different. Just my opinion on it.

 

[Son of Butch]

I certainly don't think preg check numbers are a joke, but I'm more concerned with which ones are
below average that I should avoid.

Both bulls are the same price and unless I got a 20% discount on Confidence... Right Answer gets my hardy :nod:
better $EN and $WW with higher accuracy and since I have not heard conception complaints on Right Answer,
an easy choice to me. Unless you keep your steers and feed them out then a case could be made for Confidence.

 

[Stocker Steve]

My Question would be, how do the arrive at preg check numbers? Personally I think that's a joke and marketing scheme.

No genomic test yet
So the same way EPDs are traditionally adjusted
Are EPDs a marketing scheme?

 

[bse]

EPDs are not a marketing scheme. Preg check numbers don't come from geonomic test, if they did all bull studs would be listing something. Some geonomic test will give better results than others due to the amount of data collected on different progeny from a bull.
I do believe some bulls settle cows better than others. To me you can't come up with that number unless the same person is doing the same thing on groups of cows. You can't go by registration because one particular bull may be used more as terminal rather than seedstock, all I'm saying is for me that preg check would not influence my decision at all.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I attended a conference the last couple days (Women in Ag) and it was really enlightening.

Having looked at EPD's for a few years now (and NO agricultural background prior)...I was unaware that ACC is actually the "accuracy" of the EPD because genomic testing hasn't been done and the ACC # is based on yearling bull-to his sired calves (i.e. more he sires, more "accurate" they become). I'm sure a majority of you know this but I was kinda mind-blown.

We DNA our bulls (first year) and our BEST bull was sired by a Connealy. It doesn't even matter what you're looking for...His CED is (off the top of my head) an 11.6. I am super excited to see what he does at our sale. You can find our sale by searching "Dodds Cattle" on FB (there are two, one in IA and one in NE...We are NE) and the "event" for sale is on there with EPD's (not full EPD's) Not trying to promote, simply wanting to share that bulls #'s because he's pretty darn sexy.

Going forward, we'll be introducing more Connealy in our AI program. We're currently SAV and Harvestor...Connealy will be a nice addition.

 

[Supa Dexta]

You're selling bulls and didn't even know the epd basics?

Don't worry, I won't take it as promotion.

 

[Air gator]

Ok. Here's a scenario for you. So, you are going to AI heifers and you want the highest conception.
Traditionally, the Scrotal circumference has been used to predict the fertility of bulls. So, you are going to choose bulls to AI with. So, if you have two bulls with similar epds, except one bull has a higher SC epd (His semen has the "regular" amount of sperm cells. But, the other bull's semen has 40 million sperm cells per straw. Which would produce higher conception rates? If you are AI-ing with a bull with a low SC number will you get a lower conception rate? Is there any data on SC epd and conception rates?

 

[Son of Butch]

Quality of the semen at freezing and mobility quality of the semen when thawed is the top factor in relation to
determining a bull's A.I. conception rate. Select Sires designates bulls as "Superior Settlers" based on their labs tests.
They claim over 2% higher conception rates from their sires designated Superior Settlers.

It may seem counter intuitive, but in manufacturing pulling random samples for quality assurance testing is actually
more accurate than testing each item. So I have no problem using the aggregate non-return data from A.I. technicians employed by an A.I. company. What concerns me is the companies possible unwillingness to release the data when
it's negative regarding a hot selling bull. It has happened before with a hot holstein sire.

There is no data on bull's SC score relating to A.I. conception rate.
More sperm cells per straw than what the average straw contains may or may not affect conception rate.
General school of thought is 'the more the better' as insurance for possible below average mobility thaw rates.
Air gator...
As the tie breaker in your scenario I would choose the sire with the higher sperm cell count per straw.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I have no problem using the aggregate non-return data from A.I. technicians employed by an A.I. company. What concerns me is the companies possible unwillingness to release the data when it's negative regarding a hot selling bull.

Genex claims they cull this kind.

 

[boondocks]

To the OP's question, from a somewhat-novice view,I like the older bull's accuracy numbers. But if I'm worried about calving ease, there's a bit of a spread there, in favor of C-Plus.

Re Select Sires Superior Settlers, we have so far noticed no real difference, but we have a small herd and a 2% increase isn't that statistically significant anyway. We did have one we had a hard time getting bred on AI (for her second calf), even with a Sup Settler. Technician finally used a double straw and she took.

 

[NEFarmwife]

You're selling bulls and didn't even know the epd basics?

Don't worry, I won't take it as promotion.

If you had read any of my post, you'd have seen that "I" had no Ag background prior... And my username is farmwife...So I mean, throw your snide remarks but you know what they say about assumptions.

Having had NO ag background, I am doing my absolute best to gain knowledge (the use of this board is one of them)... But thanks for being a total chump. So welcoming.

 

[Supa Dexta]

'I'm not here to sell bulls, but here is the name and where to find them' When you could have simply shared the numbers. People come and go all the time on here promoting their names and products. Good luck with your 'sexy' bulls.

 

[NEFarmwife]

'I'm not here to sell bulls, but here is the name and where to find them' When you could have simply shared the numbers. People come and go all the time on here promoting their names and products. Good luck with your 'sexy' bulls.

I was at work while posting. I don't carry numbers with me. Nor...do I have access to FB while at work. If I wanted to truly promote and run...I wouldn't have ever have really partook in posting anything other than our FB page and a few pictures. I literally just created that page for my FIL. I am a farm wife, simply trying to gain knowledge and discuss like many of the other people here. I was RECOMMENDING Connealy's bulls, not our farms... Simply because that one AI we got that produced some good numbers was real impressive. We hadn't used Connealy before and when you compare that bulls EPD's to the others whom we've bred to for several years, he is remarkable.

We don't need to push people on the internet to purchase bulls from our operation. We have a good local base who are repeat buyers.

You're a very hateful person. I really shouldn't have to come to a community board and defend myself. I love cows more than I love people and you're a good reason why! Good Lord.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Take it easy lady. The internet sure is a scary place.

 

[Stocker Steve]

My Question would be, how do the arrive at preg check numbers? Personally I think that's a joke and marketing scheme.

Initial trade marked number is based on 500 pregnancies. They adjust from there.
Lowest rating is 94% in the Genex catalog. They have been culling below that. A showy terminal bull might survive a lower number but a heifer bull would not.
Highest rating in 107% in the Genex catalog.
Max difference is 13%. This would show with a bigger herd.

 

[Son of Butch]

Heifer bulls have the advantage of being used on a higher % of virgin heifers and that alone will skew numbers.
Given that advantage I'd stay away from semen from any Heifer Bull that can't hold average or better.

 

[cow pollinater]

My Question would be, how do the arrive at preg check numbers? Personally I think that's a joke and marketing scheme. To arrive at numbers like that you would have to have the same person use alot of all the different semen, because your conception rate and mine may be way different. Just my opinion on it.

Not only that but there will be considerable differences between collections with each bull. My hunch is they collect data when it looks best and then stop collecting data. :nod: I have used hundreds of bulls in the hundreds and thousands of units range on each bull and have flagged different collections on the same bull in the computer myself when I enter breedings and have seen up to 10% variation on the same bull but different collections. VERY few bulls last long enough or have enough demand that a true improvement can be recognized and the best of those are about a 3% improvement over average.