British breeds/grassfed genetics

[usernametaken]

http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19990

Here's a link to some pics of a grassfed bull that I just bought. It's not so much the breed as the management selection that goes into them-we've run a grass program for years and there are plenty of the right cattle in North America that will work if you aren't afraid to look. This bull will be cleaning up after our A'I program along with that other Angus bull in the thread and a few others. One thing I will say alot of the very popular Angus bloodlines right now won't work in a grassfed program.

Thank you Northern Rancher. I suspect you are right that there are many cattle breeds that will work out with the right management. It seems to me from what I have been learning developing a stringent management plan is key to making a grass program work.

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[usernametaken]

Welcome to the boards. We have been grassfed for years. Mostly Shorthorn. Shorthorn, Murry Grey, and Longhorn crosses do well on grass. Good luck.

Thanks for the welcome and the good luck, Shorthorn. Do you think your Longhorn crosses add in any parasite resistence qualities ? How different do you think the Longhorn crosses would be from a Florida Cracker cross ? How is the quality of meat in the Longhorn crosses ?

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[usernametaken]

Welsh Black cattle will sure fit the bill. I have raised them for a number of years and have nothing but good to say about them.[/quote]


Hey SSR - another Welsh Cattle man. Do you know of any in the USA ?

Just for some information, I have a friend in England, close to Wales. She raises about 1000 head of sheep, 100 head of cattle and Welsh Shepherds. The Welsh Shepherd Society means that she spends a significant amount of time in Wales with the farmers over there. Here is what she has to say about the cattle

" Welsh Blacks are good cattle, they have not been
used in feedlots at all so are quite 'natural' and do well in a climate where there is a fair amount of rain and mud! They are black and hairy so I think they would suffer in a hot climate, not used to it. They are nice docile things. "

She also mentioned the breed, Luing, a Highland/ ? cross as being available in the US but I have never heard nor seen reference to them.

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[Hitch]

My guess is a Longhorn cross is going to help produce a cow that is pretty good in the lower quality grass to meat conversion cycle. Of course, what the other half of the cross is is half the answer. I am not sure what kind of temperment you are going to end up with crossing with a Florida Cracker; but I wouldn't want to be dismounted around them until I had their attitude figured out. I am not sure what hybrid vigor benefit you would gain. If you want smaller Longhorns, stick with the Cracker. Or look for minature Longhorn stock. You can expect a little extra disease resistance (common to hot/humid areas) with either one. But, there are other breeds that were/are bred to thrive in hot humid climates with lower quality forage. You may want to stick with a time tested/proven breed or mix starting out. Minimize the variables, that you can not control; they could cause you to lose a thin profit margin and demand a couple years time to recover from.

 

[usernametaken]

I may have missed it in previous posts but give plenty of thought as to how much and degree of quality pasture you are going to have available. Remember, the lush growth you see in spring may be a browned-out memory come mid to late summer. I strongly favor the British breeds overall. A very good resource for you is your county extension agent - your resident agricultural expert. Get the agent's views on your pasture and how many head you can sustain throughout the year. Do you have a clean and reliable water source? Fencing can make or break you in the long run so do it right the first time around (not cheap). How severe are your winters and what, if any, shelter should you consider building? Cold is one thing, wind chill is a serious factor. What breeds are favored in your local market? I personally think Irish Dexters, Minature Herefords, and Lowline Angus are excellent choices for the small operator. But, if they don't sell in your market area, what is your plan "B"? I like horned cattel (for no good reason other than I like them) but horns can get you docked a few bucks/head at the sale barn. Give consideration to breed temperment too plus ease of calving is important. How much hay are you going to need to winter over your stock? Are you going to finish them with grain at all? Don't forget, grass alone will probably not give your cows all the minerals they need in the right amounts. You may well find yourself feeding hay long before Jack Frost comes to town. Hay has to be properly stored and, of course, somebody has to "make hay". You going to buy your hay or 'invest' in expensive equipment? You will need a source of labor (and it will not be free or maybe not even cheap) to help get that hay put up. Well, plenty of competent folks in here to lend some advice. Good luck. Start small and grow into a larger operation. Keep asking questions and keep an open mind. Lastly, if you just plain do not "like" cows, the venture is going to be miserable for you.

Hi Hitch,
I agree with Doc, I should probably just print and post on the refrigerator. BTW, I do like cows. And sheep and horses and my English Shepherd dogs. I do not, however like cats. Naturally that is what my children like

I live in a sort of border area of the SE/Midwest. We only feed hay about 3 months a year, sometimes a little less. Right now I have no barn. Mostly I have seen the animals prefer the woods over the barn so I don't feel a pressing need to buy one, except for hay storage, the hay which I will buy. There are plenty of people around here that raise nothing else and will deliver and stack and the quality is superior. Mostly this county raises row crops - corn, soybeans and winter wheat. There is still some tobacco. :lol: We are the only county in Kentucky that voted to succeed with the South, which I am sure was influenced by the plantation ag. at the time.

I strongly believe in your fence philosophy and am only fencing off a piece at a time as I can pay for it. Definitely we are starting small and will see what goes from there. I have part of it fenced in cattle panels and most will be woven wire. I know others would recommend other types of wire, but I've seen tensile wire, when it does cut, cut all the way to the bone. I believe I would take barb-wire over that. I don't care to fool with electric, except I have some electric netting that I move around. The fences must hold sheep too. We have predators ( coyotes, dogs, bobcats) and I have seen the need for good fencing.

Local market is mostly hereford, angus and crosses and more recently big charolais. They would probably give me fits over a Dexter, not that I really care. But to sell Dexters I would need to sell them straight off the farm. I have heard the meat is excellent and unique in taste, but I need to determine if I can successfully market them or anything for that matter off the farm. I know many areas do this but it is not happening in my area yet, so I will have to develop a clientele. I may be wrong but I simply don't think the lowlines are worth the current prices I have seen. I don't know anything about the mini-herefords really.

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[usernametaken]

1) The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

2) If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

3) There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

1) I think this is more environmentally dependent. I've been watching quite a few feed efficiency trials up here, and the top of the list are those frame 4 and 5 calves with the bigger framed stuff finishing near the bottom. Of course, it may just be that we don't have the necessary exotic genetics up here.

2) The packers don't want those small carcasses as its inefficient to handle them. Unfortunately, as carcass size (and age) goes up, you must increase marbling to maintain tenderness. I think this is where "grass fed" genetics comes into play: the ability to marble nicely and be tender while finishing on a low-energy diet.

3) I think the happy medium was what we had years ago. Those smaller 650lb carcass animals that finished at 20 or 22 months. Until the packing industry starts concentrating on quality product versus efficient production, I don't think we'll see those days come back, except in the case of someone like the original poster whose trying to market a high end beef.

Rod

I am most certainly the unexpert here but have done a good bit of reading with more to go. However, I do have a financial background. While I have seen no facts or figures yet, my financial conscience if you will, gives me the hunch that in the large vs medium vs small cattle debate there must be a point where profit, if it is to be made at all, reaches the slide of diminishing returns. I suspect that the higher profit returns will be made in the medium, forage efficient type of cattle. Could be in the small cattle ( dexters) also, but there you may have a diminishing return on the carcass size. If the profit margin goes backwards I think it must be in the very large cattle. You don't have room for much error in this business I don't think. Medium cattle that live naturally, are hardy with minimum vet bills, deliver calves unassisted and maintain good health and condition through it all, and are long-lived and long productive just has the feel of common sense to me.

If you don't have a lot of land lying around it may be a big benefit to have earlier maturing cattle. One question would be did the extra dollars made on a few more pounds equal or surpass what you would charge if you were using that land to custom graze ? Also, how is cattle that leave later affecting your carrying capacity ?

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[usernametaken]

If you are sincere about seeking a "Happy Medium", have you, with conviction, considered Irish Blacks, or Aubracs??

DOC HARRIS[/quote]


Doc, both the Aubracs and the Irish Blacks are lovely. Since you are not self-promoting that I have seen, are these breeds that you raise ?

 

[usernametaken]

My normal finishing times are 14-16 months w/frame 6's and 900-950 lb. carcasses. On grain.

They should do close to the same on forage if I could keep a superior quality in front of them for a complete 6-7 month period.

I'm not putting grass finished beef down, but I just don't care for it.

Plus.....we don't have anywhere near enough real estate with good forage capabilities to make a dent in the market.[/quote]


Mike,
What are you thoughts on how the grain prices will affect you ?
Are you raising your own grain ? Feeding corn or something else?

Do you see any health problems with feeding grain that length of time?

I prefer the taste of corn fed beef myself - I'm sure that is because that is what so many of us have been raised on. But to me, the challenge of producing a grass-fed beef that is both tasty and tender is an intriquing one and a wide-open field. It is noticeable that taste does not seem to be a focus in the grass fed field.

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[usernametaken]

What you are doing is along the same lines that I have looked at. Everyone has given good advise. I have worked with a different breed but the goal appears the same. Here is a site with additional links. FYI........ do your own thinking. Good Luck! Listen to the good and the bad and land in the middle you do fine. [www.aubracuas.com][/url]

Thank you. I enjoyed the link to the aubracs. What nice cattle.

Was wondering, Aubracs certainly seem to have the right background for grass based livestock. What are yours and Doc's thoughts on the British breed only for grass ?

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[DOC HARRIS]

What you are doing is along the same lines that I have looked at. Everyone has given good advise. I have worked with a different breed but the goal appears the same. Here is a site with additional links. FYI........ do your own thinking. Good Luck! Listen to the good and the bad and land in the middle you do fine. [www.aubracuas.com][/url]

Thank you. I enjoyed the link to the aubracs. What nice cattle.

Was wondering, Aubracs certainly seem to have the right background for grass based livestock. What are yours and Doc's thoughts on the British breed only for grass ?

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untaken-

You are right - I am not "self-promoting." I have been 'retired' for 18 years. and, being an old "firehorse" of a former Ag. teacher, I offer a few opinions with the possibility and expectation that some benefit may be derived therefrom. When I did run a cow-calf operation, they were Angus X with ??? That was a l-o-o-ong time ago, and phenotype, quality and EPD's have changed the entire breeding protocols for the better since that time.

I have independently observed and studied both the Aubrac Breed and the Irish Blacks Breed. By taking the "Breed" and "Inter-breed" politics completely OUT of the selection processes and breeding decisions, and concentrating and adhering to the agenda and evaluation methods of selection of seedstock, the use of almost any breed of beef cattle (notice I stressed almost), along with correct and accepted attention to the proven traits and characteristics, and CARE of the livestock should result in a successful operation and PROFIT at the end of the year.

If one's goal is to be a Beef Cattle Breeder with profit in mind, the factors of individual selection for type of operation (Maternal OR Terminal) and optimal Management Practices are more critical than the particular choice of breed. I have stated this before, but it bears repeating at this juncture: breeding and producing beef cattle is one of the most difficult, demanding and exacting endeavors a Farmer or Rancher may choose for a livelihood. It requires intelligence, dedication, and a constant attention fo details for such an effort to be profitable. Some make a success of it - many do not. The answer lies in knowledge, the acceptance of that knowledge, and the meticulous and persistent application of all of it's ramifications directed toward a profitable conclusion.

In regard to my personal thoughts concerning British Breed only for 'grass only' operations - I am a strong advocate of Cross-breeding for optimal results and profit rather than either British or Continental only. Irish Blacks and Aubracs are excellent beef breeds unto themselves for "grass only" operations, but they are the result of many years of line-breeding which focused on those "Grass Genetic" traits, establishing a 'homozygosity tendency' (I'll use that phrase for want of a better one ;-) in many generations of breeding, and I feel that there is not enough scientific data in the utilization of either breed in cross-breeding programs to predict verifiable results. It is a wide open field for anyone who might be interested in making some Beef Cattle History!

DOC HARRIS

 

[MikeC]

My normal finishing times are 14-16 months w/frame 6's and 900-950 lb. carcasses. On grain.

They should do close to the same on forage if I could keep a superior quality in front of them for a complete 6-7 month period.

I'm not putting grass finished beef down, but I just don't care for it.

Plus.....we don't have anywhere near enough real estate with good forage capabilities to make a dent in the market.

Mike,
What are you thoughts on how the grain prices will affect you ?
Are you raising your own grain ? Feeding corn or something else?

Do you see any health problems with feeding grain that length of time?

I prefer the taste of corn fed beef myself - I'm sure that is because that is what so many of us have been raised on. But to me, the challenge of producing a grass-fed beef that is both tasty and tender is an intriquing one and a wide-open field. It is noticeable that taste does not seem to be a focus in the grass fed field.

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It cost a little more to feed them now but my cost of gain is still pretty low. That's why I'mm breeding for efficient and fast gaing animals.
I send 'em to the feedlot in Kansas. Never had a health problem of any magnitude w/feeding.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

DOC

you say almost and then refer to your stating almost, giving the indication that there are breeds you believe profit can not be made with.

Would you like to share your beliefs?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

DOC

you say almost and then refer to your stating almost, giving the indication that there are breeds you believe profit can not be made with.

Would you like to share your beliefs?

SDR-

I understand how you could misconstrue my meaning.

I was deliberately NOT connoting any particular breed in a negative implication in regard to a PROFITABLE endeavor - because I anticipated that SOMEONE would reply with numbers, statistics, facts and figures attempting to PROVE that "such-and-such" or "so-an-so" breed lost money for them in the year 19??, or 20??! If someone lost their ass-ets in a beef breeding enterprise - it was not the fault of the BREED!

There is ALMOST NOTHING in this world which is "ALWAYS" or "NEVER!"

I was practicing the old political ploy of "CYA!"

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

...have you, with conviction, considered Irish Blacks, or Aubracs??

DOC HARRIS

No I have not. ...

Mike, can you honestly say you dont have any Aubrac or Irish Black semen in your tank? :roll:

 

[MikeC]

...have you, with conviction, considered Irish Blacks, or Aubracs??

DOC HARRIS

No I have not. ...

Mike, can you honestly say you dont have any Aubrac or Irish Black semen in your tank? ;-)

I can not only say it, I can PROMISE it. ;-)

 

[OK Jeanne]

a frame 8 steer will, in my opinion, take too long to properly
"finish" on forage alone----his calories are going to bone
and height first, and will lay in the fat last. A frame 5
steer will finish much earlier.

But you will have more "Pounds" when selling that frame 8 calf.

Last time I looked, there were no carcass weight deductions until the carcass reached 1000 lbs.

I understand that those short little calves will finish earlier, but beef is still graded "choice" (which is SUPPOSED to be a measure of quality) until it reaches 30 months.

How much "earlier"?

Most any sized animal can finish by 30 months. My Char bulls, when raised on grass will weigh around 1800 by 24 months.

The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

I don't buy in to the "Smaller is Better" theory, except maybe somewhat to a degree in mama cows.

If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Hi Mike C:
Your message clearly demonstrates the difference in the ultimate objectives of your operation and ours.

You are understandably focused on pounds produced.
On the other hand, we are concerned utmost about
tenderness because we direct-market beef. In addition,
since we only sell by the half or split-half, it has become
clear that many families cannot afford to pay for a huge
carcass. Anything that is "over-sized" must be sold
in split-halves and at times, that only adds to the
details that must have more attention. When you speak
of "carcass weight deductions" you must be referring to
getting a discounted price because of a huge carcass.

Grading has nothing to do with tenderness; I suppose that
is undisputed at this point in time. Age of the animal should
not determine "grade" as long as grade is determined by
intermuscular fat---right? If our 22 month old 1200 lb
steer has finished frame growth and has laid in the IM
fat and back fat - and has done it on forage---then we
can't ask for more. You are certainly correct that it's
a whole different ball-game for people raising cattle for the
commodity production system of cow/calf, then stocker,
then feedlot phases.Sounds like you are perfectly set up
for that production model and I suspect your genetics are
ideal also---sure sounds like it. I certainly did like that photo
of the bull that you posted some time back....terrific
hindquarter.

 

[BAGTIC]

You might also check on Galloways and Belted Galloways. In independent tests here and abroad they perform very highly in meat quality and in performance on grass alone. These cattle have always been bred with the emphasis on producing on rough pastures.

I believe one difference in type is that 'grass bred' animals put more emphasis on girth and depth and less on length. Processing a lot of coarse low grade forage requires lots of internal volume to handle the bulk.