British breeds/grassfed genetics

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Right now you cannot import live animals for breeding purposes into the United States from Canada. If the USDA Rule 2 goes forward, which it should, that should change in the next couple of months. So right now you're restricted to embryos and semen.
 
usernametaken":kzvzuh7m said:
I am assuming I cannot actually import an animal from Canada at this time ?

Either I have to find one in the USA or import Semen or Embyos ?

Can anyone fill me in on these details or tell me where to look/ask about it ?

Untaken
asd

Untaken - Rod is right at this moment. Try this link to bring you up to date a little closer to today.


... region. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) conducted a thorough, scientific assessment to evaluate the risk of resuming the importation of Canadian ruminants and ruminant products in view of the two BSE cases of Canadian origin. This risk assessment included careful consideration of the risk ...
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fshe ... nrisk.html 07/02/07, 27715 bytes

Hope this helps.

DOC HARRIS
 
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19990

Here's a link to some pics of a grassfed bull that I just bought. It's not so much the breed as the management selection that goes into them-we've run a grass program for years and there are plenty of the right cattle in North America that will work if you aren't afraid to look. This bull will be cleaning up after our A'I program along with that other Angus bull in the thread and a few others. One thing I will say alot of the very popular Angus bloodlines right now won't work in a grassfed program.
 
usernametaken":3aym09he said:
Hi,
I am new to the board and new to cattle and likely to say something ignorant. ;-)

Was wondering did anyone have any experience or opinions to offer on North Devon cattle? Also Black Welsh cattle ? If there are any black welsh cattle even in the USA.

I am interested in cattle that can make it on grass/hay from start to finish.

Sounds like you are looking for Red Polls
 
usernametaken":nl6iqfyt said:
Frankie" Are you going to sell meat direct to consumers?[/quote:nl6iqfyt said:
I would like to try to develop a market for that and possibly some breeding stock sales also.

untaken

Welsh Black cattle will sure fit the bill. I have raised them for a number of years and have nothing but good to say about them.
 
I may have missed it in previous posts but give plenty of thought as to how much and degree of quality pasture you are going to have available. Remember, the lush growth you see in spring may be a browned-out memory come mid to late summer. I strongly favor the British breeds overall. A very good resource for you is your county extension agent - your resident agricultural expert. Get the agent's views on your pasture and how many head you can sustain throughout the year. Do you have a clean and reliable water source? Fencing can make or break you in the long run so do it right the first time around (not cheap). How severe are your winters and what, if any, shelter should you consider building? Cold is one thing, wind chill is a serious factor. What breeds are favored in your local market? I personally think Irish Dexters, Minature Herefords, and Lowline Angus are excellent choices for the small operator. But, if they don't sell in your market area, what is your plan "B"? I like horned cattel (for no good reason other than I like them) but horns can get you docked a few bucks/head at the sale barn. Give consideration to breed temperment too plus ease of calving is important. How much hay are you going to need to winter over your stock? Are you going to finish them with grain at all? Don't forget, grass alone will probably not give your cows all the minerals they need in the right amounts. You may well find yourself feeding hay long before Jack Frost comes to town. Hay has to be properly stored and, of course, somebody has to "make hay". You going to buy your hay or 'invest' in expensive equipment? You will need a source of labor (and it will not be free or maybe not even cheap) to help get that hay put up. Well, plenty of competent folks in here to lend some advice. Good luck. Start small and grow into a larger operation. Keep asking questions and keep an open mind. Lastly, if you just plain do not "like" cows, the venture is going to be miserable for you.
 
Hitch":2xfv269j said:
I may have missed it in previous posts but give plenty of thought as to how much and degree of quality pasture you are going to have available. Remember, the lush growth you see in spring may be a browned-out memory come mid to late summer. I strongly favor the British breeds overall. A very good resource for you is your county extension agent - your resident agricultural expert. Get the agent's views on your pasture and how many head you can sustain throughout the year. Do you have a clean and reliable water source? Fencing can make or break you in the long run so do it right the first time around (not cheap). How severe are your winters and what, if any, shelter should you consider building? Cold is one thing, wind chill is a serious factor. What breeds are favored in your local market? I personally think Irish Dexters, Minature Herefords, and Lowline Angus are excellent choices for the small operator. But, if they don't sell in your market area, what is your plan "B"? I like horned cattel (for no good reason other than I like them) but horns can get you docked a few bucks/head at the sale barn. Give consideration to breed temperment too plus ease of calving is important. How much hay are you going to need to winter over your stock? Are you going to finish them with grain at all? Don't forget, grass alone will probably not give your cows all the minerals they need in the right amounts. You may well find yourself feeding hay long before Jack Frost comes to town. Hay has to be properly stored and, of course, somebody has to "make hay". You going to buy your hay or 'invest' in expensive equipment? You will need a source of labor (and it will not be free or maybe not even cheap) to help get that hay put up. Well, plenty of competent folks in here to lend some advice. Good luck. Start small and grow into a larger operation. Keep asking questions and keep an open mind. Lastly, if you just plain do not "like" cows, the venture is going to be miserable for you.
HITCH-

You mentioned that perhaps you missed the answers to your questions in previous posts. At one time or another, most of your questions HAVE been 'approached' to one degree or another in various discussions, HOWEVER I think that this post of yours is one of the most concise and complete down to earth, no nonsense collection of subjects to consider that has been presented here in years. Those who are excited about the possibility of "getting back" to the FUN days of their youth usually have forgotten the requirements of reality of properly raising cattle - if they really ever knew them! Your post here is as concise a selection of "IN YOUR FACE" points to consider as any I have ever read. ALL beef cattle breeders, even those who have been doing it all of their lives, should copy your questions, and stick them to the refrigerator door, or the bathroom mirror, and read them every other day!

WELL DONE!

DOC HARRIS
 
I am interested in cattle that can make it on grass/hay from start to finish.

I am not personally aware of any BEEF type cattle in the USA that CANNOT make it on grass/hay from start to finish.

Would someone explain "Grass" genetics to me? Please?
 
MikeC":38m11dqx said:
I am interested in cattle that can make it on grass/hay from start to finish.

I am not personally aware of any BEEF type cattle in the USA that CANNOT make it on grass/hay from start to finish.

Would someone explain "Grass" genetics to me? Please?


I think you are right Mike C....any beef breed should be
able to exist from birth to butcher on forage alone if there's
enough of it. But that's not enough IMO.

a frame 8 steer will, in my opinion, take too long to properly
"finish" on forage alone----his calories are going to bone
and height first, and will lay in the fat last. A frame 5
steer will finish much earlier.

"Grass genetics" were broadly described in my post above,
which was a reprint from an article, not my original
writings:
----------------------------------

Defining Grass Genetics


The livestock of early America survived and thrived on a diet of grass and forages. The meat, eggs and dairy products that people consumed came from these animals. By the 1930's grain started being considered as a potential feed source for livestock. As corn fields expanded over the nation's landscape, so too did the popularity of feeding the golden grain to livestock. It was around the 1960's when the commercial feedlot system took control of the cattle industry. They became the only game in town and dictated what type of cattle was marketable and how livestock producers would be compensated or penalized for their efforts.

Early feedlot systems were owned and operated by local farmers who were feeding their own cattle to supply a local, year round fat finished market. The grazing type of cattle of those days only required 60 to 80 days of grain to fatten. After compensatory gain was reached, those animals would start putting on back fat very quickly. Animals by twelve months of age would often carry .25 inches, which is what you want today in a grassfed animal. Somewhere between 14 and 18 months, these cattle could accumulate .35-.50 inches of back fat, reaching a 4 to 5 yield grade. Today, cattle that have .40 inches of back fat get discounted at the sale barn.

As time passed, producers became more knowledgeable about mixing rations and feed management. Those more interested in penning up cattle and bringing the plentiful grain to them soon learned that narrow, taller, later maturing animals with little or no back fat performed better in that environment. The larger framed, bigger boned animal would have faster rates of gain over a longer period than the shorter, wider, more balanced animal that fattened too quickly. Transitioning to animals that could stay on grain for 120 days was a big plus for the farmer who marketed grain.

During the later part of the twentieth century, chemical companies developed bovine synthetic growth hormones (ear implants) that stimulated more growth while suppressing the deposit of fat. The results were that cattle could stay in the feedlots even longer and produce larger carcasses.

The feedlot philosophy of producing beef gained full steam by the 1940s. In 1948, a large group of cattle (30,000 head) were gathered together in Dodge City Kansas to be transported by rail to feedlots in the Chicago area. From that point on the idea of feeding grain to beef and dairy has steadily gained popularity. Production agriculture was up and running. Order buyers were paying more money for larger, taller, later maturing calves, so naturally the commercial beef producers kept the bigger cows for their breeding herds and used taller, later maturing bulls to produce their yearly calf crop. The grass genetics that produced smaller framed, wider animals quickly lost favor and faded from the landscape.

The slaughter companies quickly established markets and delivery systems. A bulk of these markets was dominated by a price structure created by the rapid growing fast food movement demanding large amounts of grind (burger). This fast food industry used its purchasing power to dictate price margins. Cattle and corn as well as other farm products (food) were now being traded as commodities and prices were regulated without


considering the farmer and his cost of production. It even came to the point where the cattlemen/farmers were told to cut operating expenses. They were forced to settle for low profit margins if they wanted to continue raising livestock. These are the same markets (no regard for producer profit) and price structures that handicap and even destroy today's family farms.

Cattle producers in America willingly changed their breeding programs in order to supply the genetics for the feedlot industry. In the early 1950s, the cattle industry determined it necessary to import Continental and European animals. The intent was to crossbreed these animals with American cattle in order to produce taller, longer, later maturing cattle that would have hybrid vigor. They brought the most money at the stockyard. Growth became primary and meat quality became a non-issue.

The constant out crossing thus continually diluted the prepotent gene pools that had effectively utilized grass. Animals were now heterozygous in their genetic make-up and lost was consistency and quality control. Even today, it is uncertain of how many pure blood strains of seedstock truly exist.

Grass genetics are rugged genetics. A majority of early American cattle were of the dual-purpose style or body type. They were valued for both their meat and milk production. Records can be found of many outstanding linebred herds of beef and dairy cattle that existed in this country up until around the mid 1960s. Pictures from old herd books and encyclopedias portray those animals as having nearly the same physical structure or phenotype, yet still maintaining individual breed characteristics. Our forefathers selected for that style of animal because of their efficient conversion of forages into the meat and milk they needed to feed their families. These animals were built for functionality and longevity and they rarely got sick. Until economic pressure and circumstances turned livestock and grain into commodities there was little change in cattle genetics. There was no reason to change a system that worked.

The type of animal that produces pounds of beef in the feedlot was described earlier. So what does an animal with the correct grass genetics look like? There are two specific physical features that an animal must possess to efficiently utilize grass. These two features that are present in many species of animals (cattle, sheep, horses, buffalo, and even swine) and characterize them as designed for that purpose are wide shoulders and a deep chest. These two traits are required for both the male and female if the animal is to grow, maintain, and reproduce on a diet of grass.

Wide shoulders and a deep chest make up the balanced body that will have better muscle structure, more consistency in intramuscular fat, and be higher in reproduction performance. The balanced body of a bovine female suited for grassfed beef production will have a frame score of 3-4 and the male can have a frame score of 4-5. Animals larger than this will be later maturing and have higher maintenance requirements. Wider stature animals are generally more docile, have more muscle mass and will be lower maintenance because of the fact they easily maintain body condition.

Cattle with the proper genetics to be sustainable on grass will have thicker hides that enable them to adapt to temperature changes and other weather conditions. An oily sheen on the hair coat is a natural insect repellent. A wide face and muzzle is needed to ingest larger bites of grass. Large nostrils and a convex shaped

head are important components to an efficient respiratory system. A deep flank indicates fertility and the ability to finish on grass.

For an animal to get his daily-required dry matter intake from pasture, it must be able to traverse the terrain and move with ease. Therefore strong, sound structured legs that are placed at the four corners of the body are crucial. Hooves are to be free of malformations (long or curved toes) and disease.

The digestive system and endocrine (pituitary, thyroid, adrenal, pancreas glands plus the testes and ovaries) system have to be working correctly and in unison if the animal is to develop to its potential. The ruminant was designed to digest forages, not large amounts of concentrated energy (seeds/grain) or fermented feeds. These types of feedstuffs change the rumen pH as well as the type of microorganisms in the digestive tract. When the digestive system is disrupted negative reactions occur that affect reproduction, growth, and immune response which can be costly to correct.

Cattle with the proper genetics to perform on grass can go into a feedlot system and gain as well as cattle with grain type genetics. However because of their efficient feed conversion, the grass genetic animals upon completing the compensatory gain at around 60-80 days (assuming maturity has been reached) is ready for slaughter. At this point muscle growth is complete and feed is converted to fat stores

The grain genetic animal that fits the bill for the feedlot system which continually gains muscle mass for 120+ days cannot go to pastures and do well. The majority of them will not maintain body condition, stay healthy, reproduce on a regular schedule, produce milk, or finish on a total grass operation.

In summary, grass genetics is not a specific cattle breed, but it is a specific body type. Wide shoulders and a deep chest are paramount for the purpose of utilizing your grass. Now if your intention is to produce grain fed beef, then the taller, narrower, later maturing animal will continue to gain and produce pounds of meat by staying on corn for longer periods. This is the plus for the feedlot industry. As a side note - purity of genetics regardless of species of animal or feeding system is vitally important to create animals that are predictable and viable for the intended purpose. Limited, well planned crossbreeding has benefits. But with continued dilution of genetic lines, you loose control.
Properly built, pure, paternal gene pools will produce as many pounds as crossbreeding.

Building a herd, a gene pool that effectively utilizes forages is not reverting back to the stone ages of livestock production. It is a system that has worked previously for decades at keeping this nation healthy - both its people and its economy. The feedlot industry controlled by the commodity market has created a monster that has become too expensive to feed. If you want to get back to a pasture based livestock production system, I applaud you. But make no mistake about it; you'll need the right genetics to make it work.

-----------------------------------------


If you are raising cattle for the commercial, feedlot system
of production, you don't need and maybe don't want
"grass genetics". The stocker buyers seem to want a
slightly thin big-boned calf----they add pounds for their
profit. The feedlots sell time and feed & probably can't
make as much of a margin on a steer that truly finishes
at 1100 or 1200 live weight. But, IMO again, grass
genetics are a must if in fact you are going to actually
sell beef.
 
a frame 8 steer will, in my opinion, take too long to properly
"finish" on forage alone----his calories are going to bone
and height first, and will lay in the fat last. A frame 5
steer will finish much earlier.

But you will have more "Pounds" when selling that frame 8 calf.

Last time I looked, there were no carcass weight deductions until the carcass reached 1000 lbs.

I understand that those short little calves will finish earlier, but beef is still graded "choice" (which is SUPPOSED to be a measure of quality) until it reaches 30 months.

How much "earlier"?

Most any sized animal can finish by 30 months. My Char bulls, when raised on grass will weigh around 1800 by 24 months.

The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

I don't buy in to the "Smaller is Better" theory, except maybe somewhat to a degree in mama cows.

If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
 
MikeC":2h5wu8dk said:
1) The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

2) If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

3) There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

1) I think this is more environmentally dependent. I've been watching quite a few feed efficiency trials up here, and the top of the list are those frame 4 and 5 calves with the bigger framed stuff finishing near the bottom. Of course, it may just be that we don't have the necessary exotic genetics up here.

2) The packers don't want those small carcasses as its inefficient to handle them. Unfortunately, as carcass size (and age) goes up, you must increase marbling to maintain tenderness. I think this is where "grass fed" genetics comes into play: the ability to marble nicely and be tender while finishing on a low-energy diet.

3) I think the happy medium was what we had years ago. Those smaller 650lb carcass animals that finished at 20 or 22 months. Until the packing industry starts concentrating on quality product versus efficient production, I don't think we'll see those days come back, except in the case of someone like the original poster whose trying to market a high end beef.

Rod
 
MikeC":2488grnv said:
a frame 8 steer will, in my opinion, take too long to properly
"finish" on forage alone----his calories are going to bone
and height first, and will lay in the fat last. A frame 5
steer will finish much earlier.

But you will have more "Pounds" when selling that frame 8 calf.

Last time I looked, there were no carcass weight deductions until the carcass reached 1000 lbs.

I understand that those short little calves will finish earlier, but beef is still graded "choice" (which is SUPPOSED to be a measure of quality) until it reaches 30 months.

How much "earlier"?

Most any sized animal can finish by 30 months. My Char bulls, when raised on grass will weigh around 1800 by 24 months.

The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

I don't buy in to the "Smaller is Better" theory, except maybe somewhat to a degree in mama cows.

If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
MikeC-

If you are sincere about seeking a "Happy Medium", have you, with conviction, considered Irish Blacks, or Aubracs??

DOC HARRIS
 
I think the happy medium was what we had years ago. Those smaller 650lb carcass animals that finished at 20 or 22 months.

? My normal finishing times are 14-16 months w/frame 6's and 900-950 lb. carcasses. On grain.

They should do close to the same on forage if I could keep a superior quality in front of them for a complete 6-7 month period.

I'm not putting grass finished beef down, but I just don't care for it.

Plus.....we don't have anywhere near enough real estate with good forage capabilities to make a dent in the market.
 
DOC HARRIS":8p6r6aol said:
MikeC":8p6r6aol said:
a frame 8 steer will, in my opinion, take too long to properly
"finish" on forage alone----his calories are going to bone
and height first, and will lay in the fat last. A frame 5
steer will finish much earlier.

But you will have more "Pounds" when selling that frame 8 calf.

Last time I looked, there were no carcass weight deductions until the carcass reached 1000 lbs.

I understand that those short little calves will finish earlier, but beef is still graded "choice" (which is SUPPOSED to be a measure of quality) until it reaches 30 months.

How much "earlier"?

Most any sized animal can finish by 30 months. My Char bulls, when raised on grass will weigh around 1800 by 24 months.

The larger framed animals will usually be more efficient in converting feed to gain also, one resaon - because it takes much less feed to make lean meat as opposed to fat. IMO

I don't buy in to the "Smaller is Better" theory, except maybe somewhat to a degree in mama cows.

If this is so, why don't we just breed them to weigh 500 lbs. max when mature?

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
MikeC-

If you are sincere about seeking a "Happy Medium", have you, with conviction, considered Irish Blacks, or Aubracs??

DOC HARRIS

No I have not. But a "Happy Medium" can be achieved within most any breed of cattle in the USA today.

All Continental breeds aren't too big, and on the other hand, all British breeds aren't too small.

I'll just go with what I know works.
 
What you are doing is along the same lines that I have looked at. Everyone has given good advise. I have worked with a different breed but the goal appears the same. Here is a site with additional links. FYI........ do your own thinking. Good Luck! Listen to the good and the bad and land in the middle you do fine. [www.aubracuas.com][/url]
 
AlaAubrac":2bbk2msp said:
What you are doing is along the same lines that I have looked at. Everyone has given good advise. I have worked with a different breed but the goal appears the same. Here is a site with additional links. FYI........ do your own thinking. Good Luck! Listen to the good and the bad and land in the middle you do fine. [www.aubracuas.com][/url]

slight correction: http://www.aubracusa.com ;-)
 
Sounds like you are looking for Red Polls[/quote]

Jovid, I have a friend that writes for the ALBC that has strongly recommended your Red Polls also. They are something I have been looking at.

Untaken
 

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