A
Anonymous
I have not done this yet. I am just wondering about the results. What type of effect would it have on the new calf if the bull was bred back to its own offspring.
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Anonymous
Morally, it's called "incest." Practically, it's "linebreeding." With line-breeding of close relatives (e.g., father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister), there is a good chance that defects will occur in the offspring. Also, it can cause an enhancement of the positive traits. It is somewhat of a crap-shoot. Are you willing to take a 50-50 chance, so to speak, that you will get a quality animal from such breeding? I think most producers prefer to line-breed at least 2 or 3 generations back. I may be wrong....
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Anonymous
> Morally, it's called
> "incest." Practically,
> it's "linebreeding."
> With line-breeding of close
> relatives (e.g., father/daughter,
> mother/son, brother/sister), there
> is a good chance that defects will
> occur in the offspring. Also, it
> can cause an enhancement of the
> positive traits. It is somewhat of
> a crap-shoot. Are you willing to
> take a 50-50 chance, so to speak,
> that you will get a quality animal
> from such breeding? I think most
> producers prefer to line-breed at
> least 2 or 3 generations back. I
> may be wrong....
Exactly right. linebreeding will either enhance the good or bring the bad to the surface. One example of linebreeding to produce good traits was the Butler longhorn herd. Milby Butler was a master at linebreeding his cattle to produce the cattle with the largest horns. As a result the Butler bloodline of cattle are known for their exceptional horns today. I also knew of another breeder who used the same two bulls for years and his cattle became progressively sorrier over the years. Something to think about: if it works it's linebreeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding. Anyway that's what some of us longhorn breeders call it!
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> "incest." Practically,
> it's "linebreeding."
> With line-breeding of close
> relatives (e.g., father/daughter,
> mother/son, brother/sister), there
> is a good chance that defects will
> occur in the offspring. Also, it
> can cause an enhancement of the
> positive traits. It is somewhat of
> a crap-shoot. Are you willing to
> take a 50-50 chance, so to speak,
> that you will get a quality animal
> from such breeding? I think most
> producers prefer to line-breed at
> least 2 or 3 generations back. I
> may be wrong....
Exactly right. linebreeding will either enhance the good or bring the bad to the surface. One example of linebreeding to produce good traits was the Butler longhorn herd. Milby Butler was a master at linebreeding his cattle to produce the cattle with the largest horns. As a result the Butler bloodline of cattle are known for their exceptional horns today. I also knew of another breeder who used the same two bulls for years and his cattle became progressively sorrier over the years. Something to think about: if it works it's linebreeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding. Anyway that's what some of us longhorn breeders call it!
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Anonymous
> Exactly right. linebreeding will
> either enhance the good or bring
> the bad to the surface. One
> example of linebreeding to produce
> good traits was the Butler
> longhorn herd. Milby Butler was a
> master at linebreeding his cattle
> to produce the cattle with the
> largest horns. As a result the
> Butler bloodline of cattle are
> known for their exceptional horns
> today. I also knew of another
> breeder who used the same two
> bulls for years and his cattle
> became progressively sorrier over
> the years. Something to think
> about: if it works it's
> linebreeding, if it doesn't it's
> inbreeding. Anyway that's what
> some of us longhorn breeders call
> it!
Beg to differ, I was led to believe Line breeding is when a female is breed back to it's direct parent. ie. sire, grand sire, greatgrand sire etc. Inbreeding is when you use relatives in the pedigree but not direct parents. eg. a heifer is bred to the brother of its sire In my experience having done both it would seen line breeding purify's traits faster and more solid, but highlites unwanted traits too. In the future I will leave this practice to someone with a better eye and feel for cattle than myself. Inbreeding by using a combination of in-crosses and out-crosses however has resulted in a lot of success. If anyone is considering either one They should find a mentor and be prepared to run around the country to look at alot of cattle before settling on a breeding program, otherwise you will be very frustrated and very poor
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> either enhance the good or bring
> the bad to the surface. One
> example of linebreeding to produce
> good traits was the Butler
> longhorn herd. Milby Butler was a
> master at linebreeding his cattle
> to produce the cattle with the
> largest horns. As a result the
> Butler bloodline of cattle are
> known for their exceptional horns
> today. I also knew of another
> breeder who used the same two
> bulls for years and his cattle
> became progressively sorrier over
> the years. Something to think
> about: if it works it's
> linebreeding, if it doesn't it's
> inbreeding. Anyway that's what
> some of us longhorn breeders call
> it!
Beg to differ, I was led to believe Line breeding is when a female is breed back to it's direct parent. ie. sire, grand sire, greatgrand sire etc. Inbreeding is when you use relatives in the pedigree but not direct parents. eg. a heifer is bred to the brother of its sire In my experience having done both it would seen line breeding purify's traits faster and more solid, but highlites unwanted traits too. In the future I will leave this practice to someone with a better eye and feel for cattle than myself. Inbreeding by using a combination of in-crosses and out-crosses however has resulted in a lot of success. If anyone is considering either one They should find a mentor and be prepared to run around the country to look at alot of cattle before settling on a breeding program, otherwise you will be very frustrated and very poor
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
this question comes up alot. everybody has an opinion the ones given are correct. i would not do it because when you start you will cause your cattle to go down hill unless you know what you are doing. if the bull is good sell the heifer and buy another heifer or change bulls that is what most of us do every two or three years.
> I have not done this yet. I am
> just wondering about the results.
> What type of effect would it have
> on the new calf if the bull was
> bred back to its own offspring.
[email protected]
> I have not done this yet. I am
> just wondering about the results.
> What type of effect would it have
> on the new calf if the bull was
> bred back to its own offspring.
[email protected]
OP
OP
Anonymous
> this question comes up alot.
> everybody has an opinion the ones
> given are correct. i would not do
> it because when you start you will
> cause your cattle to go down hill
> unless you know what you are
> doing. if the bull is good sell
> the heifer and buy another heifer
> or change bulls that is what most
> of us do every two or three years.
Its linebreeding if the animals turns out OK its inbreeding when it doesn't.If you can avoid it I wouldn't risk it.
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> everybody has an opinion the ones
> given are correct. i would not do
> it because when you start you will
> cause your cattle to go down hill
> unless you know what you are
> doing. if the bull is good sell
> the heifer and buy another heifer
> or change bulls that is what most
> of us do every two or three years.
Its linebreeding if the animals turns out OK its inbreeding when it doesn't.If you can avoid it I wouldn't risk it.
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Anonymous
Been doing it for about 10 years. Breed father back to his daughter but not to his grand daughter. Haven't had a problem yet. Get better heifers than can buy at the sale barn. Swap bulls every 2-3 years.
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Anonymous
Never, ever do it. It is pratically and morally wrong.
> I have not done this yet. I am
> just wondering about the results.
> What type of effect would it have
> on the new calf if the bull was
> bred back to its own offspring.
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> I have not done this yet. I am
> just wondering about the results.
> What type of effect would it have
> on the new calf if the bull was
> bred back to its own offspring.
[email protected]
OP
OP
Anonymous
> Never, ever do it. It is
> pratically and morally wrong.
I would have to disagree. There are very practical reasons for practicing linebreeding or inbreeding whichever you call it. Animals from two different inbred lines when crossed will often produce animals with extremely high hybrid vigor. As far as it being morally wrong, I would have to say that morals apply mainly to people not animals. If those cattle were in the wild, the bull would have no problem breeding his own heifers that remained in the herd.
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> pratically and morally wrong.
I would have to disagree. There are very practical reasons for practicing linebreeding or inbreeding whichever you call it. Animals from two different inbred lines when crossed will often produce animals with extremely high hybrid vigor. As far as it being morally wrong, I would have to say that morals apply mainly to people not animals. If those cattle were in the wild, the bull would have no problem breeding his own heifers that remained in the herd.
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Anonymous
> I would have to disagree. There
> are very practical reasons for
> practicing linebreeding or
> inbreeding whichever you call it.
> Animals from two different inbred
> lines when crossed will often
> produce animals with extremely
> high hybrid vigor. As far as it
> being morally wrong, I would have
> to say that morals apply mainly to
> people not animals. If those
> cattle were in the wild, the bull
> would have no problem breeding his
> own heifers that remained in the
> herd.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with you David.
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> are very practical reasons for
> practicing linebreeding or
> inbreeding whichever you call it.
> Animals from two different inbred
> lines when crossed will often
> produce animals with extremely
> high hybrid vigor. As far as it
> being morally wrong, I would have
> to say that morals apply mainly to
> people not animals. If those
> cattle were in the wild, the bull
> would have no problem breeding his
> own heifers that remained in the
> herd.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with you David.
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OP
Anonymous
After having seen first hand wild feral horses (I refuse to refer to them as wild horses, where stallions have bred his daughters and what they ultimatly become, natures method may not be the proper method. Nature is only interested in survival, not the traits that are economically relevent. I agree that linebred family crosses are capable of producing excellent animals. But the folks that are doing it are culling mercilessly and not herd blind. Linebreeding for trying to save a buck, lazyness or poor management can never achieve the goals that should be paramount in a breeding program.
dun
> I have to wholeheartedly agree
> with you David.
dun
> I have to wholeheartedly agree
> with you David.
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Anonymous
> After having seen first hand wild
> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
Very good points, and well put Dun.
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> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
Very good points, and well put Dun.
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OP
OP
Anonymous
> After having seen first hand wild
> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
Well said. Direction is a very important key to any successful breeding program. The breeder has to have an idea of where he is headed when undertaking any breeding project. "that's just the way it happened" is not good enough for me.
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> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
Well said. Direction is a very important key to any successful breeding program. The breeder has to have an idea of where he is headed when undertaking any breeding project. "that's just the way it happened" is not good enough for me.
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OP
OP
Anonymous
> After having seen first hand wild
> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
I don't know what horses have to do with anything...but I breed back every year and have been doing it for over 10 years. I have raised better heifers than I can but at the sale. I am not lazy, nor am I trying to save a buck. I buy new bulls every 2-3 years, and that's not cheap. My culls sold for over a dollar a pound at the sale this year, so I don't think I have poor management. There is NOTHING wrong with breeding back 1 time. Just because you think you have an answer for every question on this board doesn't mean it is the right answer.
> feral horses (I refuse to refer to
> them as wild horses, where
> stallions have bred his daughters
> and what they ultimatly become,
> natures method may not be the
> proper method. Nature is only
> interested in survival, not the
> traits that are economically
> relevent. I agree that linebred
> family crosses are capable of
> producing excellent animals. But
> the folks that are doing it are
> culling mercilessly and not herd
> blind. Linebreeding for trying to
> save a buck, lazyness or poor
> management can never achieve the
> goals that should be paramount in
> a breeding program.
> dun
I don't know what horses have to do with anything...but I breed back every year and have been doing it for over 10 years. I have raised better heifers than I can but at the sale. I am not lazy, nor am I trying to save a buck. I buy new bulls every 2-3 years, and that's not cheap. My culls sold for over a dollar a pound at the sale this year, so I don't think I have poor management. There is NOTHING wrong with breeding back 1 time. Just because you think you have an answer for every question on this board doesn't mean it is the right answer.
OP
OP
Anonymous
Exactly the point, quality bulls and cull.
dun
> I don't know what horses have to
> do with anything...but I breed
> back every year and have been
> doing it for over 10 years. I have
> raised better heifers than I can
> but at the sale. I am not lazy,
> nor am I trying to save a buck. I
> buy new bulls every 2-3 years, and
> that's not cheap. My culls sold
> for over a dollar a pound at the
> sale this year, so I don't think I
> have poor management. There is
> NOTHING wrong with breeding back 1
> time. Just because you think you
> have an answer for every question
> on this board doesn't mean it is
> the right answer.
dun
> I don't know what horses have to
> do with anything...but I breed
> back every year and have been
> doing it for over 10 years. I have
> raised better heifers than I can
> but at the sale. I am not lazy,
> nor am I trying to save a buck. I
> buy new bulls every 2-3 years, and
> that's not cheap. My culls sold
> for over a dollar a pound at the
> sale this year, so I don't think I
> have poor management. There is
> NOTHING wrong with breeding back 1
> time. Just because you think you
> have an answer for every question
> on this board doesn't mean it is
> the right answer.
