Breed Character What happened to it?

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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just think that my Herefords will perform best if i breed back the look and performance of when they first came to America. You know hearty and sound with great carcass traits.
 
herefordkid":1fw2mffz said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just think that my Herefords will perform best if i breed back the look and performance of when they first came to America. You know hearty and sound with great carcass traits.

Can your define this statement "You know hearty and sound with great carcass traits" ? I'm very curious as to what you consider great carcass traits. Hope that I don't sound like a grumpy old fart.
 
LFF":3uiahm74 said:
herefordkid":3uiahm74 said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just think that my Herefords will perform best if i breed back the look and performance of when they first came to America. You know hearty and sound with great carcass traits.

Can your define this statement "You know hearty and sound with great carcass traits" ? I'm very curious as to what you consider great carcass traits. Hope that I don't sound like a grumpy old fart.

When Herefords came from across the pond they were known for being well adapted for harsher conditions they could get out and cover some ground and they were known for their outstanding marbeling along with grade. I hope this answers your question.
 
herefordkid":wdjypgen said:
When Herefords came from across the pond they were known for being well adapted for harsher conditions they could get out and cover some ground and they were known for their outstanding marbeling along with grade. I hope this answers your question.
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So your saying that they should have a higher percentage of back fat to better enable them to survive harsh enviroments? Do you believe that the older genetics had better marbling? I don't think that they did, but it depends upon what line of genetics that you decide to use.
 
Exactly what I'm saying thank you for putting into words for me. I am trying to breed back some of the domino traits into my herd right now.
 
herefordkid":2660e1v7 said:
Exactly what I'm saying thank you for putting into words for me. I am trying to breed back some of the domino traits into my herd right now.


Do you know that the average Hereford has much less back fat than the average Angus? A Angus would have to have a back fat epd of (-.55) to equal a average Hereford. That is part of the reason a Angus can milk very well and still maintain her body condition.

According to the MARC a Hereford would need a IMF epd of .67 to equal the average Angus. There are not many Herefords with that level of IMF.
 
Red Bull Breeder":3awt29zu said:
You think reaching back in time might bring back some things you don't want?

There are definitely many traits that i am using some new lines to try to bring in to the program. However I feel my specific needs call for a little older blood.
 
I hear what you are saying those are the traits of the newer bloodlines that i do want to keep but I also feel that there is a lot to be gained from getting back to basics a little bit.
 
I hear what you are saying those are the traits of the newer bloodlines that i do want to keep but I also feel that there is a lot to be gained from getting back to basics a little bit.
 
LFF":34ocdie1 said:
According to the MARC a Hereford would need a IMF epd of .67 to equal the average Angus. There are not many Herefords with that level of IMF.
dont get carried away with that data. you are making assumptions that make your conclusions incorrect. the MARC data should be used to convert from one breeds EPD to another. they are not comparing breed trait averages and the baseline (0.00) is not equal between breeds.
 
"When Herefords came from across the pond they were known for being well adapted for harsher conditions they could get out and cover some ground and they were known for their outstanding marbeling along with grade. I hope this answers your question."

So who says herefords have lost the ability to get out in harsh conditions and perform? Lots of data out there backing up herefords ability in a challenging environment. I will argue that Herefords are the second best marbling beef breed out there, but when they came 'across the pond' there wasn't much competition as far as quality grade goes. It was their balance and the ability to flesh easily on grass compared to the cattle at that time that gained favor in those days. Always room to argue about how much actual improvement any and all breeds have seen since but stepping backwards in time isn't always the best route to take. We must all remember to learn from history or we are doomed to repeat it. There are many plentiful sources for hereford genetics without stepping back in time.
 
Sometimes going back to the good old days (and good old genetics) isn't all its cracked up to be. People remember things about the past that they like, they tend to forget things about the past they didn't like.

I am not an expert in cattle by any means. But I got into Herefords recently at the recommendation of a very experienced and helpful neighbor and friend.

I put together a starter herd by buying some here and there from local sources. After one season with a rent-a-bull, I was fortunate enough to purchase a very good bull with help from a breeder.

My Herefords are outdoors their entire life in SW WI including -30 degrees F last January with only the woods for shelter. They calve unassisted, most of them 205 day wean calves near 50% of their own weight. They generally breed back on the first cycle as evidenced by the fact all of my calves this past spring were born in a 21 day period. My group average 205 day weaning weight this fall is 662 lb. That is with no creep. The only grain they get up to weaning is a treat to gentle and train them - not significant as far as nutrition goes.

I have had no udder problems, no cancer eye and no pinkeye problems. I do use rubs and keep them oiled religiously during the fly season.

I have not processed any calves from my latest bull yet but he has a negative backfat and positive marbing EPD. He outwinters well even though he obviously does not have a lot of backfat. I think this thing about a lot of backfat being required to be good at northern outwintering is an old wives tale. Most Herefords have a disposition where you are not taking your life in your hands when working with them in close quarters. Even my bull is easy to work with - for a bull (caution still advised!!).

Here is a picture of a group of this years calves I took over the weekend as they were eating their bucket of gentling/training grain treat. These calves weaned 3 weeks ago at an avg 205 day of 662 lb. No creep. They are well above that now. There was almost now bawling at weaning they are eating mostly good hay and mineral like they mean it.

IMG_2366_1.jpg


IMG_2369_2.jpg


Now I appreciate the fact you want to improve things.

But tell me, what part of my Herefords are going to be improved by going back to the old days??? What are old time genetics going to bring me to improve on the Hereford genetics I have now??? What problem(s) are we going to solve??? What positive traits that they once had are you hoping to bring back???

Personally I think the Hereford's current problem is in marketing more than genetics. There have been a lot of positive improvements made over the old genetics. Let's make use of them and many of the new technology tools and market the breeds advantages rather than just trying to make them black. jmho.

Jim

Maybe you are not seeing the same Herefords that I am. I am not experienced enough to know if maybe all Herefords don't perform like mine - or maybe have a different market...

In any case I think you should sit down and write down just exactly what "old time" traits etc that have been lost and you want to bring back. In the pocess please don't lose the positive traits we have developed and maintained. Best of luck to you.
 
Lets not forget I never said that Herefords dont perform i said that in MY operation i have noticed that the breed character is all but lost. Again let me remind everyone that this post was a general observation of breed character being lost.
 
So give us the opportunity to understand better the breed character or absence of it in your operation. Or give us an example (either pictures of your operation or pictures of sires used) to illustrate what exactly it is you are talking about. I don't necessarily disagree with you on the problems of breed character in multiple breeds, but I will disagree that it is a problem within the hereford breed with the exception being the ever talked about/cussed 23D.

By the way, Jim an excellent post and the calves look great!

capt
 
herefordkid":1xrymxkc said:
Lets not forget I never said that Herefords dont perform i said that in MY operation i have noticed that the breed character is all but lost. Again let me remind everyone that this post was a general observation of breed character being lost.

Jim, posted pics of a pretty good set of Hereford feeder calves. WHAT "breed character" are they missing??? And what changes would YOU like to see in them???
 
cowboy43":11lcj82e said:
In certain parts of the country the same thing is happening to the human race , enough said!
:cowboy: i could say more but it'll locker up tighter than a wedge :p
 
Regarding Herefords, specifically, I think it depends on HOW FAR you want to look back. And then it also depends on the individual and what a breeder is trying to achieve with his cattle today.

Generally, I think the Herefords of today are better than the Herefords of 10-15 years ago. However, there are some individuals in the era immediately prior to that time that demonstrated some qualities that can still positively contribute to many of today's Hereford cattle. 8020, Achiever, King Ten, and certain Line 1 bulls like CL 1 Domino 386 are some good examples of horned Herefords.

George
 
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