Breach Babies

[regolith]

gertfan, there was nothing in your post to indicate what wasn't normal about these two breech births.

Correcting a breech can take a little strength and patience, but it's a straightforward procedure. If you can't do it yourself because the cow is pushing against you, the vet can give her an epidural and correct the limbs. If she's dry, you or the vet can pump in large quantities of lube to ease things up. If you got a calf jammed tight an embryotomy or caesarean may save the cow.
A cow checked two to three times a day - it's not ideal, but it should be frequent enough to intervene successfully with a breech or inside-out or upside-down calf and save the cow if not the calf.
Without knowing what exactly was different about your two cows or how many hours the vet has to travel to get to you, it's relatively safe to presume your vet isn't up to the task. One, yes, can happen to any one - but two??
And then we have to wonder why the vet didn't recommend shooting the cows as soon as you both knew that calf wasn't going to come out. The way it's written it sounds as if the vet left and the cows carried on trying to calve.

I saw a Jersey cow have an upside down calf on her own once - tiny wee bull. I saw the nose and eyes coming underneath the feet, ran like crazy to set the gates up back to the shed to bring her in and got back just in time to see it land.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

We don't live on the same property as our calving cows but I guarentee we won't leave until that cow has calved, I don't like leaving them much more than an hour before going for a check, especially if I'm 100% sure when labour actually started.
The last breech we had was last year & it took our vet & 3 others to eventaully pull the calf. The cow went down in the crush but came through a darn hard delivery fine

 

[gertfan]

If we have any calving issues next calving season I 'll be sure to call one of you since you know best

 

[BARNSCOOP]

gertfan,
I would ask you to please reconsider your thoughts. This board is for questions, answers and comments. Your wearing your feelings on your sleave. I can't see that anyone meant to say anything to belittle you, only to make suggestions as to how you could avoid this mishap again. I have taken some hard hits on cattle I've purchased and posted. I just listen and try to do better next time. This is a great place to learn and tap into years and years worth of knowledge. I like learning from others mistakes or experiences, it cost me less in the long run.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

gertfan,
I would ask you to please reconsider your thoughts. This board is for questions, answers and comments. Your wearing your feelings on your sleave. I can't see that anyone meant to say anything to belittle you, only to make suggestions as to how you could avoid this mishap again. I have taken some hard hits on cattle I've purchased and posted. I just listen and try to do better next time. This is a great place to learn and tap into years and years worth of knowledge. I like learning from others mistakes or experiences, it cost me less in the long run.

That is exactly why we take the time to answer questions. We have no idea if you are a "newbie" or a 30-year veteran.
Either case, a breech born calf is not historic. It happens to all of us, if you ever have cow's calving. As said, it is pretty straight forward as to how they are handled - depending on the individual case. But, between a spinal to stop her from pushing - if needed, pumping lube, and a KNOWLEDGEABLE vet or producer (my hubby handles ours just fine), a full breech is not world shattering. Many are saved if helped in a timely manner. Sure, some are not. Probably the most determining factor is TIMING.
You should not be so offended from people trying to help.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Very well said to both Jeanne & Barnscoop I couldn't agree more :clap: :clap:
While we try & do most deliveries ourselves there comes a time when we do require a vet's assistance but we never stop learning

 

[Keren]

gertfan, lots of us dont live on the same property as the cows. Lots of us check 3 x per day. If you observe a cow beginning to calf on the first check, she must have a calf by the second check, do not leave her till the 3rd check, glove up and figure out what is going wrong and you might be in time to save the cow and calf then. when a cow is dry from too long trying, you can pump lube into them. breech births are fairly easy to correct with a bit of grunt and knowledge. If they absolutely dont fit through the pelvis (large calf, small cow) they can be cut up with embryotome wire and delivered in pieces, to save the cow, or a caesarian can be done if the calf is valuable and still alive. If your vet cant do this, or doesnt give you these options, then yes, I would be finding a new vet or learning how to do it myself.

 

[msscamp]

It is the job of the calf to get itself into position before the birth, and generally malpresentations are seen when the nutrition of the cow hasnt been adequate to supply the calf with enough energy to move into the diving position.

If you have a large number of presentations, it is generally a sign to look at your nutrition program

According to everything I've read on the subject, the opposite is the problem. Of course, that is assuming the cattle in question are "roomy" enough, bred at the proper age, and to the proper bull. Given those variables, my research indicates that overfeeding your cattle in the last trimester is a major contributor to breech births because the added nutrition goes straight to the calf, thereby causing a calf to large to be able to migrate into the proper front feet first position.

 

[msscamp]

In both breach cases that we had this year, the cows had been trying to have the calves for several hours, we check them morning and evening.

That is a management issue, but you do need a new vet. Cesarian section could possibly have saved your calves, as well as your cows.


The calves presented tail first and their back legs were up underneath them we were unable to reposition them and the vet was unable to also. The cows had been pushing for so long that it was now a dry birth, making things even more difficult.

Again, a management issue.

If some of you think you could do a better job maybe we should call you when we have a problem come up or better yet you could come to our farm and tell us what you think we need to do differently.

I know I could have done a better job, but don't bother calling me the next time it happens because you've already shown you're not interested in suggestions. This is something you're going to have to figure out on your own. Nor do I believe that this is the first time in better than 30+ years that you have had these issues. If it was, you would know what was required, what to do to correct it, and you would not be on here asking - just my honest opinion.