Brafords

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midtncattle":ctp7e7t1 said:
Massey,
You seem to have this cross business pretty well figured out. How is the h vigor from a gert x char? What would you put over a gert x char cow for h vigor kick? I would like the hereford x ger cross, but I fill I will lose lbs based on hereford vs char. Does that sound correct? Trying to figure out the best teminal cross with gerts?

Personally, for a terminal calf I'd prefer to have the continental influence from the sire as the calf would be 1/2 continental. Continentals tend to have more growth so I'd prefer to inject the growth into the calf instead of into the cow herd.

The Gert is a stabalized composite so while it won't have as much hvigor as the brahman/shorthorn F1, the stabalized composites still possess a considerably amount.

If I had Gert cows- a Charolais or Limosine bull would be the only options I would consider for a terminal calf. The Gert cow is already 3/8 indicus 5/8 english so what do you need to maximize hv?... some Continental blood! There are other Continentls available but the Char and Limi seemed to have specialied in growth more so than some of the other breeds. A half continental x 3/16 brahman x 5/16 british is about a good of feeder calf here in the South that you can get.

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.
 
Massey135":3bnji9ez said:
If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.
Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred. :2cents:
 
ANAZAZI":3vu9e3bk said:
Massey135":3vu9e3bk said:
If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred. :2cents:
:nod:
 
ALACOWMAN":1jw1a46e said:
ANAZAZI":1jw1a46e said:
Massey135":1jw1a46e said:
If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred. :2cents:
:nod:
Show me where a 4 way cross calf ( char x (shorthorn x brahman, hereford)) has more hybrid vigor than a 3 way cross (char x(shorthorn x brahman)

You're right, the hereford x gert cow EXPRESSES more hybrid vigor HERSELF than the shorthorn x gert cow but our concern SHOULD be the hybrid vigor expressed in the calf crop! Hyrbird vigor is maximized at a 3 breed cross- Once you infuse more than 3 breeds, you will experience diminishing returns of hybrid vigor.

There IS a need to stabalize the genetics of the cow herd- that is... stabalized at TWO breeds- not some mongrelized crap shoot! The only way to get a 3 way cross calf, is to have true CROSSBRED cows- that is a cross between TWO breeds.
 
the hereford/gert cross, is a tried and proven cross.. the gert is a breed, sure it was a cross ,,, but its now stable breed... you get the most hybrid vigor from two homozygous parents,,,
 
So gert x hereford ( or gert x angus) with a char bull for terminal cross will give bigger returns then my gert x char if all inputs are equal. That makes since and what I thought. I may just retain some of those gert x hereford heifers.
 
midtncattle":1nw44lse said:
So gert x hereford ( or gert x angus) with a char bull for terminal cross will give bigger returns then my gert x char if all inputs are equal. That makes since and what I thought. I may just retain some of those gert x hereford heifers.
i would'nt think of doing other wise....
 
Isn't hybrid vigor somewhat suppressed in a stabilized composite (Santa Gertrudis, Brangus, Braford and so forth)? If so wouldn't the Hereford propose more hybrid vigor for the retained heifers, therefore better mamas, better calves?
 
Massey135":z0e92opp said:
ANAZAZI":z0e92opp said:
Massey135":z0e92opp said:
If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred. :2cents:
Show me where a 4 way cross calf ( char x (shorthorn x brahman, hereford)) has more hybrid vigor than a 3 way cross (char x(shorthorn x brahman)

You're right, the hereford x gert cow EXPRESSES more hybrid vigor HERSELF than the shorthorn x gert cow but our concern SHOULD be the hybrid vigor expressed in the calf crop! Hyrbird vigor is maximized at a 3 breed cross- Once you infuse more than 3 breeds, you will experience diminishing returns of hybrid vigor.

There IS a need to stabalize the genetics of the cow herd- that is... stabalized at TWO breeds- not some mongrelized crap shoot! The only way to get a 3 way cross calf, is to have true CROSSBRED cows- that is a cross between TWO breeds.

First, the scenario I described involves a cross between two breeds santa gertrudis aka gert, and hereford aka herf. A typical 2waycross, an f1 cross if you will.
Then come back with a terminal breed; making a 3way cross. It is not a 4way cross in any sensible way. (The gerts originated as a cross; it was a long time ago, it is now a breed.)

As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.

And the point of a 3waycross is not to maximize individual heterosis, because it is equally maximized in a 2way cross. The point of a 3way is to maximize the individual heterosis of the calf while maximizing the heterosis of the calfs mother
That is why a third breed is introduced, because otherwise one can not have both max heterosis in the cow and max heterosis in the calf.

In a bottle feeding situation a 2way and a 3way perform the same. Where the calfs mother matter (on the range with her calf) 3way systems outdo 2way systems, simply because heterosis helps the cow to do a good job!

And yet again, trust the terminal sire to provide the consistency needed, it is far cheaper than to keep "stabalized" commercial cows and loose maternal heterosis. :deadhorse:
 
As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.



THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.
 
Massey135 said:
As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.



THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.[/quote]
:?: which breed are they regressing to
 
Massey135":1fgpohrs said:
As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.



THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.
:bs:

Let me try to explain what heterosis really is. It is a phenomenon consisting of the general fact that when two genes are paired up, and they are different, the gene that provides the most health, strength or vigour usually is expressed more than the other gene.

If many pairs have different genes, there is much heterosis.
If many gene pairs have 2 copies of the same gene, there is less heterosis.

This means that as long as the two genes are different, this is enough. Nature can only "choose" two genes (example one yellow and one black), even if four different genes are present, for example in a 4waycross (black red yellow and green).
A "black paired with a "yellow" is the same heterosis as a "red" paired with a "black"; or a "green" with a " black".
The point is breaking up same colour pairs. That is heterozygousy in a simple way. :2cents:

Regarding consistency, the more colours, the more combinations. :2cents:

Oh, and breed regression, that is when one runs out of new colours and they start to pair up again. Equal parts of eight different colours= no breed regression.
 
JWBrahman":3qyw9jsj said:
bigrob,
I would be happy to send you pics of this year's Charolais x Braford vs Angus x Braford calves. There ain't a bit of difference in the size, but the Angus x Braford is a gentler animal that is easier to deal with. Calm temperament equals money in your pocket.

Thanks I would appreciate that
 
ALACOWMAN":10lfu5r4 said:
Massey135":10lfu5r4 said:
As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.



THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.[/quote]
:?: which breed are they regressing to

ANAZAZI":10lfu5r4 said:
Let me try to explain what heterosis really is. It is a phenomenon consisting of the general fact that when two genes are paired up, and they are different, the gene that provides the most health, strength or vigour usually is expressed more than the other gene.
ANAZAZI answered your question ALACOWMAN.

ANAZAZI,
The degree of dissimilarity in the genes that are paired up are positively correlated with the level of heterosis or hybrid vigor expressed. Your analogies are just flat out wrong- while you're right nature can only choose 2 genes, its not a red and a black like you tried to present, its a MIXING of the genetic contributions (colors) of its parents whereas the red and black is now a "maroon" if you will.

The more colors you add to the equation the more likely you are to experience either breed regression or outbreeding depression- which is the inverse of hybrid vigor wheras a hybrid inherits traits from its parents that are not fully compatible.
 
Massey135":1hg1wmmj said:
ALACOWMAN":1hg1wmmj said:
Massey135":1hg1wmmj said:
As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.



THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.[/quote]
:?: which breed are they regressing to

ANAZAZI":1hg1wmmj said:
Let me try to explain what heterosis really is. It is a phenomenon consisting of the general fact that when two genes are paired up, and they are different, the gene that provides the most health, strength or vigour usually is expressed more than the other gene.
ANAZAZI answered your question ALACOWMAN.
ANAZAZI,
The degree of dissimilarity in the genes that are paired up are positively correlated with the level of heterosis or hybrid vigor expressed. Your analogies are just flat out wrong- while you're right nature can only choose 2 genes, its not a red and a black like you tried to present, its a MIXING of the genetic contributions (colors) of its parents whereas the red and black is now a "maroon" if you will.

The more colors you add to the equation the more likely you are to experience either breed regression or outbreeding depression- which is the inverse of hybrid vigor wheras a hybrid inherits traits from its parents that are not fully compatible.
no he didnt,, but its no big deal i already knew the answer :tiphat:
 
the dominant gene will be expressed in an attempt to maintain an identity during any type of regression or depression.
 

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