Bought Pharo Cattle Company Angus bull

[Stocker Steve]

Off to Dickinson, N.D., tomorrow morning to pick up a bull bought on the Colorado Pharo Cattle Co. sale. Could be interesting. But I just can't find any smaller-framed cows so I submitted a Sight Unseen bid for $4200 on a sort of 28 grass efficient, easy fleshing DNA. Almost didn't get a bull at all for that bid.

Pretty PCC bulls with "great" numbers were $7000 and up at the Colorado sale.
I think PCC over minimizes BW. I don't like 60# calves myself.
I do think that PCC, in one generation, can correct many of welfare cows that are so common.

 

[Stocker Steve]

For those who are complaining about getting docked for small frame score calves...what were their measured frame scores & were they quality cattle?

We have sold F2 PCC x Simangus at the market, with about 20# less weaning weight than our previous calves.

I think you just need to avoid "small" frame PCC bulls with 48# BWs.

 

[Rydero]

It sounds like it'll work for what Muletrack has in mind (making smaller replacements) which is what counts because he's the one who bought the bull. Using it as a terminal cross is a different story.

 

[alacowman1]

Pretty PCC bulls with "great" numbers were $7000 and up at the Colorado sale.
I think PCC over minimizes BW. I don't like 60# calves myself.
I do think that PCC, in one generation, can correct many of welfare cows that are so common..

Had an Ohlde bull, and he made good replacements. Many black PCC bulls have Ohlde several generations back. These bulls seemed to be about 4 frame.

Got several like her now Occ bred..deep bodied that are easy to maintain year round..need to get some new pics of the others..

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I think I could get along with Occ cattle except for being black plus I have black cattle on all 4 sides of me.
They're all good, (cattle and the neighbors)

 

[76 Bar]

I acquired an Olde bull decades ago when a nationally known & respected seedstock breeder made good on a Bando 155 son that I'd purchased turned out to have a a deviated penis. Long story short...years later they admitted he didn't have enuff "power" to suit them. Maybe so but the dtrs I retained were impressive on all accounts.

 

[alacowman1]

I think I could get along with Occ cattle except for being black plus I have black cattle on all 4 sides of me.
They're all good, (cattle and the neighbors)

I'd bout guarantee you could find a Odle bull too suit you..not little dinks they're making out to be ..massive, especially viewing them in person..

 

[Lee VanRoss]

alacowman> To paraphrase 'Quigley Down Under' I never said they were dinks. I said they were black.

 

[alacowman1]

alacowman> To paraphrase 'Quigley Down Under' I never said they were dinks. I said they were black.

Knew what you were saying..

 

[Stocker Steve]

Got several like her now Occ bred. Deep bodied that are easy to maintain year round. Need to get some new pics of the others.

Really nice cows.

PCC bulls have a "look". I would call it thick. Perhaps thicker, and shorter, than OCC.

 

[alacowman1]

Really nice cows.

PCC bulls have a "look". I would call it thick. Perhaps thicker, and shorter, than OCC.

Never seen a Pharo bull in person...only a handful of Occ but impressive animals..

 

[Nkline]

Never seen a Pharo bull in person...only a handful of Occ but impressive animals..

I saw a pharo bull at stud once, I was not envious. I like using Wye bulls to down size. They seem to have the convenience traits and make some nice cows. A couple more obscure bulls that I liked for down sizing were Spartan grandeur O and I also had a nice Spur Emulous Master son.

 

[CVAR]

@76 Bar as far as our calves no they were not measured for frame score, being commercial calves. The quality on ours I feel should be good as their heifer mates consistently sold as bred heifers in the upper percentiles of the sale. Our calves have usually been from heifer bulls so that could account for the smaller size at weaning. By the next year the heifer mates are typically well grown and have enough frame to meet the graders approval. Every once in a while there would be one that doesn't. Our calves have been from AI and sons of those AI bulls with mature heights of 56 inches or more. When we weaned off our calves that time in question they were in good shape and I knew the markets would view them as short and too fat even after being weaned. The markets here want feeder cattle (stocker cattle) that don't have a lot of flesh and that have plenty of frame to put weight onto.

Ky says it exactly right. If you don't have a real plan to market those smaller cattle all the way through the system, you'll suffer some losses. Like ky says - if you're just taking weaned calves to the sale barn, those guys look for framey, thinner calves that they know they can add fast weight on. Also, those small framed calves usually won't match up on ribeye and other cuts so even if buyers get a good deal, they don't want them. On the flip side, if your herd is large and your feeding out a full pot load or more, packers can make that work because there's enough there to get large batches of consistency in the animals and cuts. Trying to market 20
at the local sale barn will be VERY tough unless everyone else happens to bring the same type animal on that day. Over the years we've had both big and small framed and efficiency isn't always tied to size like so many people like to claim (especially on this site) we have large cows that are literally tanks and their body condition and flesh seem to be the same year around. 1st and 2nd calf heifers seem to be the ones we have to watch regardless of frame size. I don't know if he still does but at one time, Pharo I thought had a full system with cooperator herds so a person that uses his animals could market them within a system that uses small frames. I'd suggest if your buying into those bulls, you try to lean on him to follow the rest of his system which might work for you better than just buying one of his small bulls and trying to compete at the local barn.

 

[W.B.]

Off to Dickinson, N.D., tomorrow morning to pick up a bull bought on the Colorado Pharo Cattle Co. sale. Could be interesting. But I just can't find any smaller-framed cows so I submitted a Sight Unseen bid for $4200 on a sort of 28 grass efficient, easy fleshing DNA. Almost didn't get a bull at all for that bid. If I like him I'll up it by about a thousand for next time. Well, it's 200 miles to Dickinson, so time for some zzz's. Project shrink the cows is in force.

Just curious how much mature weight are you trying to take off in one generation? If you have really big cows a yearling Pharo bull won't be big enough to impregnate your cows.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Insightful people talk about not buying a bull - - but buying a "program". How you feed, how you calve, how you market... PCC is focused on easy fleshing easy calving replacements and grass fed beef. A lot of people do not want any of this and that is fine.

I do see a lot of people here spending 4 to 6 K on a fat shiny BA bull, that can not sire efficient females, and can not sire vigorous terminal calves. If you enjoy bringing feed to your cows and selling calves in the sales barn - - there is no reason to debate which Angus bull to buy. You need to buy a cheap terminal bull and sell all the heifer calves. Limiflex is my favorite terminal sire.

 

[T Farms]

Been there done that. My advice, especially in the Northern climates but everywhere, is avoid PCC bulls. Way to small of frames, to many dink calves, and tit sucking cows. We use OCC bulls and what a difference. Cows are 1250-1350# and efficient.