rocket2222
Well-known member
:nod: 
Bought a bred heifer yesterday (pic)
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TexasBred
Well-known member
Keep working on it...Knersie didn't get their over night either. And I saw no vicious accusations. Just well stated facts which Knersie is known for. ;-)AllForage":o8waclnz said:
vontrapp1
Active member
KNERSIE":2mvds7dr said:
Hmmm. If by settling the debate you mean whether or not Jim has self feeders on his place, and uses range cubes to supplement when needed. If you read my previous post I stated that this was all true. But just because someone went to his place and took pictures of the bull development pens where the self feeders happen to be does not mean it negates any of the comments I made in my post. Again I will say unless you have been to Jim's place (which I have been many times all through the year) you can't characterize his operation by those pictures. I never denied that he used self feeders or range cubes, I am just saying that this alone does not warrant a blanket statement that they are of no use or won't work in a completely grassfed operation. Especially givin the detail I layed out in my post. I have all the proof I should ever need or anyone else for that matter grazing in a pasture in Kansas this very minute.
Best Regards,
DG
vontrapp1
Active member
KNERSIE":1mg2y9gw said:
I will go on record as saying no one likes words being put into their mouth especially when they are trying to avoid saying what they are really thinking. I don't like putting words into anyones mouth but in a vacuum a person is forced to read between the lines to try an understand another persons point of view.
When you make statements like.
It indicates you have indepth knowledge of the operation in which you are speaking. It implies in this case that the Lents cattle can't hack it in a real grassfed enviroment at least in your opinion. In part at least because there are self feeders and range cube supplement in use. If I were only to see someones operation through pictures then I might be forced to come to the same conclusion. However, I would like to think that I would ask the questions I needed to before coming to a conclusions like this.
Additionally when you make a comment like:
Right after someone post pictures that could only be assumed were posted to further the debate or prove the existence of self feeders on someones place indicates again a bias in belief.
So it is not what you say but how you said it. However now I have to ask myself just what was the argument about. I think my arguement all along has been and I still want to know when you have had the opportunity to work with Lents cattle to come to these conclusions or at least seen them in the flesh to qualify all your opinions.
I have read a lot of your opinions and comments on here on random threads. I have found that your opinions are good and come from hard and solid experience. Generally speaking I think you give good advice especially about beef animal conformation and breed characteristics. So I won't deny you your opinions even about the Lents cattle I would just like comments that are made to be qualified relative to your level of experience with the bloodline yourself. It will allow others to at least desire to seek out their own in the flesh experience rather than writing them off based on comments from this or any other thread.
Words are powerful so we must be careful how we use them. So if you were not trying to imply what I believed you were trying to imply then my appolgies.
Best Regards,
DG
OK here is what I am saying so you don't have to guess or read between the lines.
I have never seen a Lents bull in the flesh, however I have been involved in more than one where I mentored the herd where I have followed the bull from the time it left OK till the day he was sold at the salebarn.
I have been following Jim's program for a number of years, have exchanged many e-mails in the past with him, learnt from him, etc. I still receive the Lamplighter and find it an amusing read, very much like the Adventures of Tin-Tin, its little more than fiction and escapism and unfortunately not always factual or scientific. I have seen numerous Lents bulls fall to pieces and never recover, I am not prepared to name all the owners. They may do a lot right, but doing ability is their biggest shortcoming and in my opinion that can be fixed by selecting for more girth and guts, unfortunately a "hideous hay belly" is one of Jim's pet hates.
They may be prepotent, but its not only good traits that are passed on as can be seen in the pics you've posted. There is no program in the world where they "all are the same" and just about every bull born are sold as a herdsire "because they are so tightly linebred they are all the same".
Believe what you want, but be openminded enough to see that there are other lines, some linebred some not that are better grazers than the Lents cattle and try and see the common denominator in these herds.
As soon as I see someone writing and claiming one thing and practising the other it gets filed under "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshite" in my biased opinion.
I have never seen a Lents bull in the flesh, however I have been involved in more than one where I mentored the herd where I have followed the bull from the time it left OK till the day he was sold at the salebarn.
I have been following Jim's program for a number of years, have exchanged many e-mails in the past with him, learnt from him, etc. I still receive the Lamplighter and find it an amusing read, very much like the Adventures of Tin-Tin, its little more than fiction and escapism and unfortunately not always factual or scientific. I have seen numerous Lents bulls fall to pieces and never recover, I am not prepared to name all the owners. They may do a lot right, but doing ability is their biggest shortcoming and in my opinion that can be fixed by selecting for more girth and guts, unfortunately a "hideous hay belly" is one of Jim's pet hates.
They may be prepotent, but its not only good traits that are passed on as can be seen in the pics you've posted. There is no program in the world where they "all are the same" and just about every bull born are sold as a herdsire "because they are so tightly linebred they are all the same".
Believe what you want, but be openminded enough to see that there are other lines, some linebred some not that are better grazers than the Lents cattle and try and see the common denominator in these herds.
As soon as I see someone writing and claiming one thing and practising the other it gets filed under "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshite" in my biased opinion.
vontrapp1
Active member
KNERSIE":cgqiptm3 said:
Ok good now we are talking. I know exactly where you stand on this issue. I would like to see examples of enough girth and guts based on your experience. If you have pictures or if you have posted them in another thread point me to that thread. It would be good to have rear, front and side angle pictures of both male and female examples both good and bad if you have them. In picture format just in life you need to have a measuring stick to be able to contrast correctly. For my education it would be helpful.
Regards, DG
Ok good now we are talking. I know exactly where you stand on this issue. I would like to see examples of enough girth and guts based on your experience. If you have pictures or if you have posted them in another thread point me to that thread. It would be good to have rear, front and side angle pictures of both male and female examples both good and bad if you have them. In picture format just in life you need to have a measuring stick to be able to contrast correctly. For my education it would be helpful.
Regards, DG[/quote]
These aren't Herefords they are Red Polls but in my opinion they have more than enough girth and guts.
Regards, DG[/quote]
These aren't Herefords they are Red Polls but in my opinion they have more than enough girth and guts.
purecountry
Well-known member
KNERSIE":dg1jqcnl said:
I am only looking for clarity here Knersie. You say you have never seen a Lents bull in the flesh, yet you've seen numerous ones fall apart? If you've never seen one in the flesh, do you mean you have heard second hand from people who have had them, that they fell apart?
As far as doing ability of Jim's bull's I will use myself as an example. Cows nurse 10 months, calve on pasture, Watery northern forage in spring then again in fall, Homegrown alfalfa/grass mix in winter, Temps from 95 in summer to 30 below in winter, no de-worming or vaccinating, minimal shelter in winter. These bulls have been thrown into this and are doing well as seen in the photos. I also got them young which was my idea. I think that is key when moving anywhere outside of an arid environment.
I don't believe any herd is a one size fits all. I have accepted certain truths on the form of a grass-type beef animal. I also believe in linebreeding. I hope to take Jim's animals form and prepotency to recreate that form consistently and adapt it to Wisconsin. I will have to apply my own pressure and selection over years for my own farm and forage. I also can follow these animals from conception to harvest. Besides form, yield and meat quality are also my problem being that I direct market. Time will tell. Nobody should just blindly piggy-back anyone's genetics. Just like most of our breeds originated in the UK. Adapted, fixed and linebred to fit their counties climate. Very different animals were developed only miles from each other. Each person herd should be selected to perfectly fit their situation. I feel I will get there sooner with Jim's bulls.
The bull wrecks you speak of, do they involve moving 2 year old or older bulls to very different areas? My first bull could have been described as going backwards. After a year he took off under my style. Once again, have these unfortunate former owners speak for themselves.
Just as vontrapp1 stated earlier, the proof is in my pastures and customers freezers. My steers and heifers are marbling sooner and high end cut percentage is going up. The proof ultimately is on the plate and I am producing gourmet grassfed beef with no crutches.
If there are other forage based and linebred herefords out there please let me know.
just some more thoughts
I don't believe any herd is a one size fits all. I have accepted certain truths on the form of a grass-type beef animal. I also believe in linebreeding. I hope to take Jim's animals form and prepotency to recreate that form consistently and adapt it to Wisconsin. I will have to apply my own pressure and selection over years for my own farm and forage. I also can follow these animals from conception to harvest. Besides form, yield and meat quality are also my problem being that I direct market. Time will tell. Nobody should just blindly piggy-back anyone's genetics. Just like most of our breeds originated in the UK. Adapted, fixed and linebred to fit their counties climate. Very different animals were developed only miles from each other. Each person herd should be selected to perfectly fit their situation. I feel I will get there sooner with Jim's bulls.
The bull wrecks you speak of, do they involve moving 2 year old or older bulls to very different areas? My first bull could have been described as going backwards. After a year he took off under my style. Once again, have these unfortunate former owners speak for themselves.
Just as vontrapp1 stated earlier, the proof is in my pastures and customers freezers. My steers and heifers are marbling sooner and high end cut percentage is going up. The proof ultimately is on the plate and I am producing gourmet grassfed beef with no crutches.
If there are other forage based and linebred herefords out there please let me know.
just some more thoughts
Herefords.US
Well-known member
EAT BEEF":2l2i3pcz said:
The Lents bulls will outbreed themselves when crossed with other lines of Herefords. Because they are linebred and so genetically different than most "modern" Herefords, it's basically a form of heterosis within the breed. Cross them on cows of other breeds and you can get some amazing results.
However, when you stack another Lents bull on top of the offspring of a Lents bull, you're going to see that "heterosis" benefit mostly disappear.
That is where I think these folks are going to start having problems. Frankly, I think the Lents cattle, as an intact linebred line, are too slow growing and too small at maturity, even for most of the "grassfed" folks. And I think knersie's criticism regarding their capacity and doability in a purely grassfed situation has validity. You can talk about their Anxiety 4th history, but the cattle that Gudgell and Simpson bred were typically larger than the Lents cattle by several hundred pounds at maturity. And today's American cowherd is nowhere near the same as it was in 1881 when Anxiety 4th was imported.
Now, if you want to question my credentials, I bred Anxiety 4th Herefords for about 25 years, and was around them even longer. And I first saw a Lents bred Anxiety 4th Hereford over 40 years ago. Yes, I've been to his ranch.
I'm not saying the Lents cattle have no use. As a tool to perhaps increase marbling, reduce size, or provide some genetic consistency to a varied herd, they may have a place.
And I do admire Jim's dedication. He's stuck with it when virtually everyone else bailed...or died. As a linebreeder and knowledge of that technique and its history, he may have no living equal. I just disagree with his selection criteria.
George
And I do admire Jim's dedication. He's stuck with it when virtually everyone else bailed...or died. As a linebreeder and knowledge of that technique and its history, he may have no living equal. I just disagree with his selection criteria.
Very well put
Very well put
Herefords.US,
As far as heterosis, isn't that a major consideration in a terminal situation? Does continual outcrossing help one get to his goals of uniformity and consistency? Would you say the Lent's cattle are a good place to start for a foundation? As I stated in my previous post I plan to select towards what I believe is right for my situation after correcting my commercial group. I base a lot of size on final hanging weights. My anxiety crosses have been from 625-750 hanging weights. That is considered ideal I believe by most larger grassfed labels. If that drops then I know we are getting too small.
Knersie,
I respect your last post. Previous ones did not come across in that way. Time will tell for all of us.
As far as heterosis, isn't that a major consideration in a terminal situation? Does continual outcrossing help one get to his goals of uniformity and consistency? Would you say the Lent's cattle are a good place to start for a foundation? As I stated in my previous post I plan to select towards what I believe is right for my situation after correcting my commercial group. I base a lot of size on final hanging weights. My anxiety crosses have been from 625-750 hanging weights. That is considered ideal I believe by most larger grassfed labels. If that drops then I know we are getting too small.
Knersie,
I respect your last post. Previous ones did not come across in that way. Time will tell for all of us.
jhambley
Well-known member
AllForage,
Please feel free to contact me about my Lents bull (a paternal half sib to VonTrapp1's bull) and the 5 heifers that were calved year one. I calved out two of those daughters this year.
Jerry Hambley
(913) 271-7500
Please feel free to contact me about my Lents bull (a paternal half sib to VonTrapp1's bull) and the 5 heifers that were calved year one. I calved out two of those daughters this year.
Jerry Hambley
(913) 271-7500
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