Bloody mucus at estrus

[Angusjohn]

I A.I'd a heifer 11/30; at that time, the AI gun had bloody mucus on it. Put CIDR back in on 12/14, pulled it 12/21. The heifer was back in heat yesterday (12/25), with bloody mucus smeared on her hip. I did not try to breed her, thinking that the blood, if coming from her uterus, made it unlikely she would stick. Anyone ever experienced this before? If I expose her to the bull, is it likely she'll get bred, or should I put her on the trailer? Of course, as luck would have it, she's one of the nicest heifers in that group.

 

[Redgully]

If there is blood you are breeding way to late in her cycle. Need to go 24 hours earlier.

 

[Bright Raven]

I A.I'd a heifer 11/30; at that time, the AI gun had bloody mucus on it. Put CIDR back in on 12/14, pulled it 12/21. The heifer was back in heat yesterday (12/25), with bloody mucus smeared on her hip. I did not try to breed her, thinking that the blood, if coming from her uterus, made it unlikely she would stick. Anyone ever experienced this before? If I expose her to the bull, is it likely she'll get bred, or should I put her on the trailer? Of course, as luck would have it, she's one of the nicest heifers in that group.

Blood of ovulation discharges are usually 2 days after estrus activity or one day after estrus behavior at the earliest. Assuming you have experience doing Artificial Insemination (it appears you do), it is rather odd that you are breeding during the time of bleed-off from ovulation. I suspect there may be another source of the bloody mucus.

Thus, the following question. You bred her on 11/30. There was bloody mucus on the rod. Was she bred on 11/30 following a synchronization protocol involving the use of a CIDR? If you had her set up with a CIDR, a CIDR can sometimes irritate the vagina resulting in small amounts of blood and sometimes even white blood cells. I rarely use CIDRs, but I had a case very similar to yours. When I pulled the CIDR, there was a small discharge that came out in front of the CIDR. I proceeded with the protocol and it was successful.

If the source of the blood is the vagina, it will not interfere with conception. If the source of the blood is uterine, in that case, blood can act as a spermicide inside the uterus.

The source of the blood could be related to many scenarios but this heifer could be having some vaginitis due to the irritation of the CIDR.

 

[Angusjohn]

I've been using AI for the past 20 years, so I'm no rookie. I don't breed a lot of cows, but got 16 of 20 last fall on observed heat, 70% on a timed AI Protocol for my brother on a group of heifers. To soon to know yet how I did this fall.

So far as the protocol is concerned, I used gnrh, then a CIDR followed by lutalyse the first time, just a CIDR the second time. I also used an estrus alert patch both times. She was definitely not showing heat 12/24 AM. no sign at 4:15 the evening of the 24th. She came in overnight sometime. Knowing that bloody discharge usually shows up a couple of days after heat occurs is why I was confounded by the blood being present. I should add that when I bred her the first time, the mucous was what I should have described as tinged with blood.

Sounds like I just need to expose her to my bull and see what occurs.

 

[Bright Raven]

I've been using AI for the past 20 years, so I'm no rookie. I don't breed a lot of cows, but got 16 of 20 last fall on observed heat, 70% on a timed AI Protocol for my brother on a group of heifers. To soon to know yet how I did this fall.

So far as the protocol is concerned, I used gnrh, then a CIDR followed by lutalyse the first time, just a CIDR the second time. I also used an estrus alert patch both times. She was definitely not showing heat 12/24 AM. no sign at 4:15 the evening of the 24th. She came in overnight sometime. Knowing that bloody discharge usually shows up a couple of days after heat occurs is why I was confounded by the blood being present. I should add that when I bred her the first time, the mucous was what I should have described as tinged with blood.

Sounds like I just need to expose her to my bull and see what occurs.

Good man. Thanks for the explanation. Btw. I am only about a couple hours north of you. You said Danville on your profile.

Come back and enjoy the forum!

 

[Redgully]

If it is the cidr causing the bleeding it would be odd to happen both cycles. When you put a cidr in if it is a bit dry can cause irritation which then stops the uptake of the hormone. I have never seen blood during A.I. apart from occasionally on the gloved hand. Was this bright red blood or dark? Best option would be to expose to a bull, if she doesn't breed you know there is something sinister going on and ship her. But i am always curious to the cause for future reference and usually like to investigate a little further.

 

[Bright Raven]

I've been using AI for the past 20 years, so I'm no rookie. I don't breed a lot of cows, but got 16 of 20 last fall on observed heat, 70% on a timed AI Protocol for my brother on a group of heifers. To soon to know yet how I did this fall.

So far as the protocol is concerned, I used gnrh, then a CIDR followed by lutalyse the first time, just a CIDR the second time. I also used an estrus alert patch both times. She was definitely not showing heat 12/24 AM. no sign at 4:15 the evening of the 24th. She came in overnight sometime. Knowing that bloody discharge usually shows up a couple of days after heat occurs is why I was confounded by the blood being present. I should add that when I bred her the first time, the mucous was what I should have described as tinged with blood.

Sounds like I just need to expose her to my bull and see what occurs.

That second synchronization attempt is right on the button:

1. Insert CIDR 12/14. ADMINISTER GnRH.
2. Pulled CIDR 12/21. Administer Prostaglandin (Lut).
3. She came in 12/24. During the night.
4. Observed estrus on 12/25.

If you are synchronizing and breeding on observation, that is right on the button. So that went well. The blood on her posterior has many possible sources. I would have bred her.

Possible sources:
1. Blood from an another cow. Like sinus snot from another cow. I have been fooled by that. Until I figured out that I have a cow with a chronic bleeding sinus. When a cow comes in heat, she discharges blood on their rump when she sniffs them.
2. Vaginitis
3. Endometritis
4. Etc, etc.

With your experience doing Artificial Insemination, it is certainly not the blood of ovulation.

 

[CG1]

I am probably wrong on this but it has been explained to me that blood streaked mucous does occur a few days after the peak of estrogen. Not of Ovulation. So even tho the blood was present it doesn't mean ovulation has occurred. If the blood was a representation of the peak, her surge, true ovulation, will take place 24-72 hours after that surge. So the timing could have been perfect. If that was the reason the blood occurred the blood would be coming from her uterus. It happens because of the big high and low of estrogen. Without progesterone to support the lining it causes a bit of break through bleeding and for some, blood streaked mucous is a sign of optimal fertility.

But. I know nothing about AI.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am probably wrong on this but it has been explained to me that blood streaked mucous does occur a few days after the peak of estrogen. Not of Ovulation. So even tho the blood was present it doesn't mean ovulation has occurred. If the blood was a representation of the peak, her surge, true ovulation, will take place 24-72 hours after that surge. So the timing could have been perfect. If that was the reason the blood occurred the blood would be coming from her uterus. It happens because of the big high and low of estrogen. Without progesterone to support the lining it causes a bit of break through bleeding and for some, blood streaked mucous is a sign of optimal fertility.

But. I know nothing about AI.

The bloody discharge is usually about 48 hours after standing heat. It correlates with the high levels of estrogen produced with the maturation and release of an ovum from the follicle. If someone is breeding at the time of bleed-off, they are breeding too late. That is the point that Redgully made. I only see a bleed-off about 20 % of the time.

If you do see a bleed-off, you only know that the cow ovulated. It doesn't mean your AI was successful.

 

[CG1]

I am probably wrong on this but it has been explained to me that blood streaked mucous does occur a few days after the peak of estrogen. Not of Ovulation. So even tho the blood was present it doesn't mean ovulation has occurred. If the blood was a representation of the peak, her surge, true ovulation, will take place 24-72 hours after that surge. So the timing could have been perfect. If that was the reason the blood occurred the blood would be coming from her uterus. It happens because of the big high and low of estrogen. Without progesterone to support the lining it causes a bit of break through bleeding and for some, blood streaked mucous is a sign of optimal fertility.

But. I know nothing about AI.

The bloody discharge is usually about 48 hours after standing heat. It correlates with the high levels of estrogen produced with the maturation and release of an ovum from the follicle. If someone is breeding at the time of bleed-off, they are breeding too late. That is the point that Redgully made. I only see a bleed-off about 20 % of the time.

If you do see a bleed-off, you only know that the cow ovulated. It doesn't mean your AI was successful.

I've always understood that to be the big debate. Does the blood come from the uterus or from the rupture of the egg during ovulation. But the high level of estrogen doesn't correlate with ovulation timing. It just represents the surge. But the surge is the start. Some will ovulate straight away, others 3 days later. So even tho the blood showed, is there not a chance that the egg was still yet to be released?

(Not debating you, this genuinely fascinates me, cows are very similar to humans reproduction)

 

[Bright Raven]

I am probably wrong on this but it has been explained to me that blood streaked mucous does occur a few days after the peak of estrogen. Not of Ovulation. So even tho the blood was present it doesn't mean ovulation has occurred. If the blood was a representation of the peak, her surge, true ovulation, will take place 24-72 hours after that surge. So the timing could have been perfect. If that was the reason the blood occurred the blood would be coming from her uterus. It happens because of the big high and low of estrogen. Without progesterone to support the lining it causes a bit of break through bleeding and for some, blood streaked mucous is a sign of optimal fertility.

But. I know nothing about AI.

The bloody discharge is usually about 48 hours after standing heat. It correlates with the high levels of estrogen produced with the maturation and release of an ovum from the follicle. If someone is breeding at the time of bleed-off, they are breeding too late. That is the point that Redgully made. I only see a bleed-off about 20 % of the time.

If you do see a bleed-off, you only know that the cow ovulated. It doesn't mean your AI was successful.

I've always understood that to be the big debate. Does the blood come from the uterus or from the rupture of the egg during ovulation. But the high level of estrogen doesn't correlate with ovulation timing. It just represents the surge. But the surge is the start. Some will ovulate straight away, others 3 days later. So even tho the blood showed, is there not a chance that the egg was still yet to be released?

(Not debating you, this genuinely fascinates me, cows are very similar to humans reproduction)

It is my understanding that it comes from the uterus. This is one of my heifers from last year. That was taken 2 days after she was bred.

 

[Bright Raven]

Regarding timing of ovulation. The occurrence would fit a bell curve. But taking the average, most charts show ovulation occurring 28 plus or minus 4 hours after the onset of standing estrus.

The bleed-off as shown in the photo above will occur about 48 hours after the onset of standing estrus. The ideal time to AI is 8 to 10 hours after the onset of standing estrus, thus, breeding occurs way before the observation of a bleed-off.

 

[Bright Raven]

Be careful with that "3 days later for ovulation". Here is a Select Sires Chart that I use for breeding:

 

[Bright Raven]

Cowgal604

It is fascinating. I too marvel at the parallels between human and Bovine reproductive physiology. When I stated in my post above that there is a correlation between ovulation and bleed off, I did not mean to imply that they occur simultaneously, they do NOT. My intent was to indicate a connection of the two events. In the broader application of the term "correlation", I think that is acceptable.

It has been a long time since I took schooling in reproductive physiology but I was fortunate to have schooled under Dr. James Spears who was a pioneer in Bovine embryo transfer. Dr. Spears left University and went on to serve on the Board of North American Embryo Transfer. I might have some of the titles wrong, if so I apologize. I know we plowed a lot of this ground.

As to where the "blood of ovulation" comes from, I confess that I have forgotten some of that. When the follicle ruptures, it may release a very tiny amount of blood but it certainly could not account for what we see in those photos. The "blood of ovulation" (not a precise biological term) is, I think, associated with the endocrine effects on the uterus. Here is another photo. As you see, the amount of discharge can be significant.

 

[CG1]

Cowgal604

It is fascinating. I too have marveled at the parallels between human and Bovine reproductive physiology. When I stated in my post above that there is a correlation between ovulation and bleed off, I did not mean to imply that they occur simultaneously, they do NOT. My intent was to indicate a connection of the two events. In the broader application of the term "correlation", I think that is acceptable.

It has been a long time since I took schooling in reproductive physiology but I was fortunate to have schooled under Dr. James Spears who was a pioneer in Bovine embryo transfer. In his class, we had to complete a successful embryo transfer using mice. The concept is the same as in cattle and the hormones used are the same. Dr. Spears left University and went on to serve on the Board of North American Embryo Transfer. I might have some of the titles wrong, if so I apologize.

As to where the "blood of ovulation" comes from, I confess that I have forgotten some of that. When the follicle ruptures, it may release a very tiny amount of blood but it certainly could not account for what we see in those photos. The "blood of ovulation" (not a precise biological term) is, I think, associated with the endocrine effects on the uterus. Here is another photo. As you see, the amount of discharge can be significant.

You're an interesting person. I like your mind.

I was a part of a few clinical trials where I learned a ton about human reproduction. Once I started breeding cows I was amazed at the similarities.

I believe it's still not a proven phenomenon. "Ovulation bleeding" and where the blood is actually coming from. Whether uterus or ovary. I've seen some experts write they think it's the rupture of the cyst from the ovary and others write its from the drop of estrogen after the peak causing a disruption in the uterus as you call it endocrine effects

 

[Bright Raven]

Cowgal604

It is fascinating. I too have marveled at the parallels between human and Bovine reproductive physiology. When I stated in my post above that there is a correlation between ovulation and bleed off, I did not mean to imply that they occur simultaneously, they do NOT. My intent was to indicate a connection of the two events. In the broader application of the term "correlation", I think that is acceptable.

It has been a long time since I took schooling in reproductive physiology but I was fortunate to have schooled under Dr. James Spears who was a pioneer in Bovine embryo transfer. In his class, we had to complete a successful embryo transfer using mice. The concept is the same as in cattle and the hormones used are the same. Dr. Spears left University and went on to serve on the Board of North American Embryo Transfer. I might have some of the titles wrong, if so I apologize.

As to where the "blood of ovulation" comes from, I confess that I have forgotten some of that. When the follicle ruptures, it may release a very tiny amount of blood but it certainly could not account for what we see in those photos. The "blood of ovulation" (not a precise biological term) is, I think, associated with the endocrine effects on the uterus. Here is another photo. As you see, the amount of discharge can be significant.

You're an interesting person. I like your mind.

I was a part of a few clinical trials where I learned a ton about human reproduction. Once I started breeding cows I was amazed at the similarities.

I believe it's still not a proven phenomenon. "Ovulation bleeding" and where the blood is actually coming from. Whether uterus or ovary. I've seen some experts write they think it's the rupture of the cyst from the ovary and others write its from the drop of estrogen after the peak causing a disruption in the uterus as you call it endocrine effects

Thank you. No way that much blood comes from a follicle rupture.

Edited to add:

I have read this publication before. I had forgotten the term. Metestrous bleeding. Yes, it comes from the uterus not the ruptured follicle.

"Some cows and most heifers have a bloody mucus discharge one to three days after estrus, but onset of this symptom, called metestrous bleeding, is quite variable. High estrogen levels during estrus cause blood to leak from vessels near the surface of the uterus"

https://extension.psu.edu/heat-detection-and-timing-of-insemination-for-cattle#section-13

 

[Angusjohn]

Just an update. Preg checked last week, the heifer settled on the next natural heat. 81% conception with the A.I.!

 

[Redgully]

Thanks for the update. You get a good conception rate.